STEM: Strategies That Engage Minds

Episode Transcript

SB S1 E14 – Carol O’Donnell

Kelly: [00:00:00] Hi, everyone. Welcome to Let’s Talk About Skills, Baby. I am your host Kelly Ryan Bailey. Each week, I chat with inspiring visionaries about the skills that make them successful, how they develop those skills and their innovative approaches to improving skills based hiring and learning around the world. Come learn what skills help you live your best life.

My guest today is Dr. Carol O’Donnell. Carol, thank you so much for joining us today. How are you doing?

Carol: Good. And thank you so much for the invitation.

Kelly: Oh my pleasure. I’m still loving this background of yours. We’re going to get into why Carol has this background up in a minute.

Let me just give you guys a brief background on Carol. I’m going to give the highlights here. Carol is the director of the Smithsonian Science Education Center, which is a unit of the Smithsonian Institution that is dedicated to transforming the [00:01:00] learning and teaching of science throughout the nation and world.

She also serves as a US Representative on the Global Council of the Inter-Academy Partnership Science Education Program and on the subcommittee on Federal Coordination in STEM Education. I actually think those might’ve been three things. Did I just combine two of them?

Carol: No, you did a great job.

Kelly: Okay, perfect.

But prior to joining this Smithsonian, Carol was a leader at the US Department of Education for nearly a decade, supporting states and districts as they built their capacity to implement and sustain education reforms and achieve continued improvement in student outcomes. She also oversaw the Cognition and Student Learning Program of the Institute of Education Services.

This is just so fantastic. She is also a former K through 12 teacher and curriculum developer. Hence the love of education. And she is still in the classroom today. She is serving as a part-time faculty of the Physics [00:02:00] Department at the George Washington University. Carol also has spoken extensively about women in STEM, the next generation science standards, diversifying the stem teaching workforce, educating youth across the globe on the complex socio scientific issues that underlie the UN sustainable development goals and social and emotional learning.

Carol has her Bachelor’s degree of Science and Education from the University of Pittsburgh.

She also has a Master of Science in Geosciences from Mississippi State University and her Doctorate in Curriculum and Instruction, with a focus on Science Education from the George Washington University. Let’s first talk about this Carol, the background. Obviously we were just chatting about this before we jumped on and hit record.

So tell us a little bit about what’s going on with the zoo these days.

Carol: The Smithsonian is a massive museum education and [00:03:00] research complex. So we’re located predominantly in Washington, DC in the US, but also have museums and other places such as New York City and have research centers in Maryland and Panama.

But as you can only imagine at a time when COVID-19 has shut down so many of our facilities where large groups gather, including in many museums across the nation, the Smithsonian’s brick and mortar portion of our work has been shut down to the public since COVID-19. Since March 17th. We are beginning our phase one which is beginning to reopen.

So we were able to reopen our National Zoo, the Smithsonian’s National Zoo and Conservation Biology Institute, which is in Washington DC. This image behind me, and for those of you who may be listening, there is an image of two [00:04:00] chimps who are bronze statues on large stones. And of course those chimps have masks on and it’s just an adorable photograph.

So before the National Zoo opened to the public two weeks ago, they wanted to make sure that to send a message of how important these protective measures are. The chimps are socially distanced.

Kelly: I didn’t even recognize that.

Carol: And they are also wearing their mask. Although this little guy here, he needs a little lesson and making sure that he covers up his nose as well. He hasn’t done a good job on that.

Kelly: This is too cute. I mean, and I’m sure that a ton of people are so happy to have something reopening, especially like an outdoor area. It just feels a little bit more safe for all of us.

Carol: And I also want to mention that we were also able to open up the Smithsonian’s National Air and Space Museum, which is one of the most visited museums in the world.

That museum has two places. So [00:05:00] one museum, two places. And one of the museums places is in Virginia, in Dallas. It is massive in size. So it’s the Udvar-Hazy museum and because of its size, it’s a really good place to be able to make sure that people can socially distance or physically distance.

Kelly: That’s good. I’m trying to recall back to it. It was very large. My kids really enjoyed the spaceship right in the middle. That was their favorite. I was kind of drooling over the Concord myself.

Carol: Yes, it makes sense. We have large objects in our collection.

I think there’s like 154 million objects in the Smithsonian’s collection. And some of them are very tiny micro. Some of them are very, including mosquitoes. And some of them are very, very large.

Kelly: Well, it’s great to have these two places open and anyone who has, I mean, even if you’ve been there before, it’s just [00:06:00] a really fun day out with the family, by yourself even. Really both fantastic places. So I highly suggest checking it out. While we’re on this topic, you had mentioned that everyone has to order or get their tickets online.

Carol: Yeah. And that’s unusual for the Smithsonian. Normally people can just walk in, it’s free.

So nobody has to pay anything. The ticketing system, which is still free, so it does not cost to get a ticket, but the ticketing system allows us to control if you will, the number of people that come through the door so that we can ensure physical distancing.

Kelly: That makes sense. So yeah, definitely check them out online, grab your ticket, get in there.

You’ll have a lot of fun and I think we all are ready for a day out.

Carol: I’ve had some colleagues who’ve gone and they just loved it.

Kelly: Oh, I bet they did. I wish I was closer. Well maybe the next time I can get down there when we [00:07:00] get to a little bit more regular travel.

Well, Carol, I know I gave a bunch of highlights which are just fantastic. First of all, thank you. This is just such an honor to have you here. I know from us chatting before, your passion around helping children really discover and understand and learn. The love of it, right?

The love of learning. But I want to hear a little bit about how you kind of came into this, a little bit about your story. If you don’t mind.

Carol: Yeah, not at all. It’s always great to tell your story and have opportunities to do that.

So thank you for giving me that opportunity. And I think as you get older, you reflect on your story because you’re trying to think about what are the things that really have helped me to become who I am and why am I so passionate about certain issues? I think that I’ve been very fortunate to kind of think back as to why the work we do at the [00:08:00] Smithsonian is so focused on the inequities of the world and trying to balance those inequities or to balance the equities, I should say.

One of the things that I can tell you in terms of my background. So I grew up in inner city, Pittsburgh in a fairly under-resourced region, which was very much a steel mill town. A place where the biggest industry was making steel. And so it was a very sadly polluted area, but also a very difficult place to live.

I would consider it to be what would be called a school desert. The elementary school shut down. The middle school shut down. The high school shut down. And by the time I entered high school, there were no choices locally. And so my parents recognized that I had developed a real love for science, as well as a real [00:09:00] skill for math.

They wanted to get me into a good school. And so my mother in particular worked really hard to get me onto a list to send. And this was before school choice was really an option. There were no charter schools at the time for today. They were able to get me into a school that was several neighborhoods away, which was a fairly well-resourced neighborhood and the school had a scholars program.

And I think that set me on a journey where I recognize that education really does make a difference in opening doors. Because of that background, I was able to develop a real strength in science and math and became very interested in teaching as well. Because I recognized that education was making a huge difference in my life.

I had always been very interested in science from explorations in my own [00:10:00] backyard. So even though I didn’t have access to summer schools, summer camps, afterschool programming, that was not part of my life. I found ways to engage directly in learning by using the world as my laboratory. I also was always tinkering with things, literally building things in my own home, using my mother or father, it was actually my mother’s hammer.

So that says something about our family. And engineering solutions to problems. This is true, to finding ways that my mother could pour out something and only get a teaspoon of sugar to come instead of the whole thing. So I created something that allowed that to happen.

I created a bed maker out of yo-yos and string which I had read in a book and wanted to test it. So I believed that that was my love. And when I went off fortunately to college and just to let you know, my [00:11:00] father went to the eighth grade and nothing past that. And my mother was able to finish high school.

And so there was not this real understanding about college. And I was able to make a decision. Did I want to major in engineering or in teaching students about engineering or science? And I chose the latter. My mother cried for several days because she felt that I could have been more.

And what I think she now realizes is being a teacher, was the best profession. And she now sees that as the best profession. And I truly believe it is. I’ve dedicated my whole life to science education.

Kelly: That’s amazing. And I feel like in all of this, I’m assuming just based on what you’ve just described, that because you fell in love with learning, you became a teacher to give that experience to other children.

Carol: That’s right. It’s interesting because there’s always this debate about whether [00:12:00] teaching is a science or an art. And I do think it’s both and people often say that, but you have to be passionate about teaching and you have to be passionate about education and the power that education plays in kind of shifting cultural norms and being able to ensure kind of the future workforce and all of the phrases that we hear, but it really does make a difference and you have to love what you’re doing.

Kelly: I’m thinking back, there has only been maybe two or three teachers my entire life that I remember, and that stood out and it’s for all of those same reasons. There was a true love there. It’s hard, if someone is that passionate about what they’re doing, it’s pretty hard not to feel that passion and that brings something out of their students. But that doesn’t happen often.

Carol: Yeah. I’ve been [00:13:00] teaching for Georgia Washington University since 2000, I think it was 2007 or 2008 when I first taught my first course there. And we developed together a new course that was using what’s called ‘scale-up methodology’, which is where students are engaging directly and learning science by doing science.

That wasn’t always the case at the university level was very didactic and traditional.

Kelly: Like, we want to talk to you and you just absorb.

Carol: Right. And we know now that that’s not the case. You know that teachers/educators shouldn’t be the holder of all knowledge and students are the sponges that absorb it.

That’s not how things work. So George Washington University dove into this idea that how can we use new pedagogical practices that people like the Smithsonian have learned work really well in grades K to 12. How do we now transfer those skills, to be honest, like a teaching skill to the college level?

And it wasn’t easy [00:14:00] originally. It wasn’t easy because students were resistant. It wasn’t easy because other professors,

Kelly: I’m suprised about students. I could totally see that professors would be resistant because it’s changed for them, but I’m surprised students were, I really am.

Carol: The students were resistant because one, I teach for the physics department. I teach an introductory astronomy course. And many students may take those courses because they need to take a science course because they need six credits or eight credits. Many don’t want to have to do much more than-

Kelly: I see. It’s like, let’s keep it to the basics. I’m just trying to get through this.

Carol: Yeah. Just tell me what I need to learn. I’ll memorize it for the day that I have the chance to. That was the population of students back in 2007, 2008. I do not see that today, this course fills up immediately. There’s always a wait list. Students now embraced this kind of pedagogy they want to learn by [00:15:00] doing, and they want to engage with others and problem solving.

And they want to look at science as phenomenon driven instead of “all right today, we’re going to learn about rocks.” They are no longer there. So we, as teachers, as educators had to shift as our students also embraced new ways of thinking.

Kelly: Well, I’m just really happy to hear that. Like you’re not seeing students like that now. It means that this shift. I mean, yes. Tennis years. But it’s still a pretty major shift to see in that timeframe.

Carol: And we’ve also seen that shift in terms of our young, in terms of advocacy. You know, they’ve become real activists as well.

And we’re seeing that in middle schoolers, we’re seeing it in high schoolers, we’re certainly seeing it in college students.

Kelly: Well, my landscapers have just joined us.

Carol: I [00:16:00] can’t hear it. One of the things that of that I really appreciate is that, to go back to something you mentioned at the beginning, this framework we use at the Smithsonian which is “discover understand, act” is that it’s really crucial that learning science topics, as well as engineering technology, mathematical topics, are place-based.

They have to understand how these particular issues affect them locally so that they can engage in local investigations, in local surveys, and make local decisions. And so that’s where the discover part comes in the work that we do, which is we want students to see science and the world around them and to survey others to better understand it.

The understand part is, now let’s investigate the issue. Whether it’s COVID-19 or whether it’s climate change or whether it’s mosquito-borne diseases or even nutrition. [00:17:00] Now investigate the world through inquiry, collect information about the scientific issue and through experimentation investigation.

Then finally act. Now use your new scientific knowledge or engineering skills or practices to do social good, to actually make a difference in the world. And because so many students are very motivated by activism and making a difference, it’s been a really appealing. We as educators, science educators, had to change in the way we approach things because of the fact that students were also shifting.

Kelly: Wow.

And was this like a slow shift that you were seeing with students becoming more involved in that way?

Carol: Yes. Certainly. I was born in the early sixties and activism on college campuses where there was always true activism and so activism is not new. I think what’s new is the fact that science [00:18:00] educators are recognizing, kids are getting younger and younger in there and there’ll be driven by doing social good.

And the question is, as a science educator, what could we do to help students, to empower them is not the right word. Cause that’s very unidirectional like, oh, I’ve got something and I’m going to empower you by giving it to you. But encouraging and facilitating their ability to use new knowledge to make a difference in them.

Kelly: I like how you put it that way. Well, I know we fast forwarded a little bit here between when you first decided to go into teaching and now you’re teaching your faculty position, but like in between there, let’s talk a little bit about that part of your story.

Carol: Sure. So when I was in an undergraduate at the University of Pittsburgh, I was a poor inner city kid who took two buses in the morning to get to college and two buses in the afternoon to go home.

I didn’t live on campus, [00:19:00] couldn’t afford to do that, and went to the closest school for that very reason. University of Pittsburgh was a wonderful experience for me, because the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center is on campus and it’s one of the largest employers of the state. At the time, it was not called the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center.

It had a bunch of hospitals and I was very fortunate I worked for, it’s funny, you’re probably too young to know this, but there used to be this thing called Kelly Girls. Which still exist today. It’s called Kelly. I think they dropped the girls part.

So this tells you the difference of the seventies versus now. Kelly Girls was an organization that hired you for a temporary, like for a day. And you would go fill somebody’s job in and you had to type fast and take notes. This was your job, right? Cause this is what the girls did in the seventies.[00:20:00]

So I was a poor young kid and had many jobs and one of the jobs was I was going to work for this Kelly Girls and –

Kelly: And Kelly, is that spelled like my name?

Carol: Yes, same exact spelling. And again, it still exists today. There are temporary placement company.

Kelly: I wonder, is this Kelly services today?

Carol: Yeah. That is it. Kelly Services.

Kelly: Honestly, sometimes these things that you just don’t know, it’s funny. I mean, they didn’t decline, but I hear you.

Carol: So I signed up and on my second day with them, they sent me off to the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center to answer phones for the gastroenterology lab.

And at the end of this is a true story. So at the end of that day, Mary Milo, I still remember her. The head nurse said to me, you are amazing. Do you want a full-time job? [00:21:00] This is true story. I said, oh, I can’t have a full-time job. I go to school full-time at the University of Pittsburgh.

She said, “Oh, don’t worry about that. You could come in for two hours in the morning, then go off to your class, then come back and do a couple of hours, go back to your class, come back.” I thought, oh, I can’t pass this up. This is an amazing opportunity for me. And I took it. She hired me. So there was something Kelly, there was something she saw in me in a day’s time. Something either about the skills that I had, or maybe she was just desperate, but she absolutely, and I’ve never forgotten her because of it.

She became a mentor to me. I worked for her for three years and a full-time job working with physicians who studied, it’s a medical hospital. You do a lot of research and I learned from them, and I learned from her.

Halfway through that time period around 1980, [00:22:00] I think it was like 1981 maybe, I graduated in 1983. I started in 1979. And somewhere around that timeframe, a very prominent physician, Dr. Thomas Starzl came on board and started a liver transplantation office. He was a pioneer in liver transplantation and they asked me if I wanted to work for them as a medical research assistant.

And I absolutely took it on. And this was my senior year. They wanted me to stay on and I wanted to be a teacher. And I will never forget, again, my poor mother, she cried all the time. Why would you pass up working for a pioneering physician like Dr. Starzl and liver transplantation to go on to become a teacher?

And I said, because it’s what I’ve always wanted to do. And I loved it. And again, you have to have the right skills, but you also have to follow your heart. And that’s what I [00:23:00] did, but I was very fortunate. Those four years helped me to really kind of solidify that science, engineering and medicine, health, became my place. I wanted to not only stay in those fields, but educate others in them in life. And that’s what I’ve done.

Kelly: That’s amazing. Now I’m thinking back to what she must have saw in you in that day. And of course, I’m sure you were hardworking, I’m sure that you had passion, I’m sure that there were things, but if you could actually name them in terms of like maybe those skills in you that she saw?

Because skills are not only necessarily what we would refer to as like a technical skill. It could be the fact that you could problem solve, there’s critical thinking, all of those things.

Carol: Well said. I think that you’re right, that both the technical skills are the hard skills, if you will, and the soft skills [00:24:00] made a huge difference. Mary Milo saw something in me that day that said that I not only had the skills to do the job and it was not a complicated job. But it was a very emotionally difficult.

We were working with people who had, for example, liver cancer. These were the patients that we were working with. But also had other very advanced forms of cancer, whether it was gastroenterology, forms of colon cancer, for example.

But these patients working with them, I might’ve been doing skills that were not advanced technical skills. I think it’s combining the technical skills with the soft skills that makes for a very successful individual.

Kelly: It sounds like that might’ve required a huge amount of empathy.

Carol: Yes, it did. And I think that [00:25:00] sometimes when we work in technical fields, it’s very easy and even physicians and I experienced this, I think even physicians sometimes get very wrapped up in the work that they’re doing and then tend to lose sight of the individual. That’s why the most successful people in the medical field are people who also see their patients as who they are in addition to supporting the field by advancing.

For example, Dr. Starzl advanced the field by identifying an immunosuppressant cyclo sporine, that would keep an individual from rejecting a new organ. But it also required some soft skills and there were,

Kelly: We’ve all had those experiences with our own doctors at some point, I’m sure.

I mean, we tend to refer to it as their bedside manner. I don’t think many of us end up sticking with the physician that you just makes you feel so uncomfortable no matter how [00:26:00] amazing they are. There really is a part of that, that’s so true. You can’t just forget the other side of the equation.

Carol: When you’re in a very pioneering field like liver transplantation sometimes those particular skills, the hard skills matter more. And so I do think that while many of us, and as we advance in our career, want to make certain that we are working with someone we like, sometimes there are skills that you can learn from a mentor simply because they’re so good at their craft.

That takes precedence. And so I think throughout your lifetime, and I feel like I had this, I’ve always thought about what did I want to do? Where did I see myself five years, 10 years, 20 years from now. And I never really imagined that many of those dreams would come true, but they did.

[00:27:00] And I’m very fortunate because I think along the way, I’ve met people who I’ve seen as really strong mentors and as a woman in STEM, we would all think that it would be another woman who would be your mentor, but you don’t often have that choice sometimes. Physics is not a field that is predominantly female. It’s just not.

Kelly: I’m actually glad that you’re bringing this up because this is just something that I wouldn’t think that, but now that you’ve said it, you’re actually right. Because there’s plenty of times where an opportunity presents itself to work, you don’t necessarily need to enjoy that person as a friend.

But there’s so much you can learn from that.

Carol: Yeah. And it’s so important. And I think that right now, especially as a woman in STEM, you have a tendency to think about carving out and finding another woman who can be your mentor. And that’s really crucial. [00:28:00] There have been a lot of studies in teaching, for example, that talk about the importance of a STEM teaching field demographically mirroring the student population.

Kelly: I’ve heard that before, too. It’s so true. Cause it’s hard. It’s the same reason why we talk about, I mean, if we’re going to talk about women here, why we talk about like girls having dolls at a young age and all that like that. Because they need to see that people like them, and I mean, not only because of appearance, I also mean people that maybe come from a similar background, they need to have a connection with that person.

Just like we described with those teachers, you need to have this connection really be able to see yourself being able to do it.

Carol: That’s right. So whenever we have see these large conferences that are focused in advancing women in a particular field, like in STEM.

It’s so important that the attendees of that conference or the [00:29:00] voices of that conference are not just women, but they must also include men. And that’s because we now know that, even though we are doing a better job of educating girls in STEM in grades K through 12 and more girls are choosing STEM as a field when they go off to college and we’re graduating more girls in STEM fields, as peer research has shown. They’re not often persisting in those degrees, in those fields or those careers.

And why is that? Peer research showed that it’s either because, especially for women with advanced degrees, they are often passed over for advanced positions. They often find that they are in a field where there’s not a lot of acceptance in terms of who they are, or they’re not given opportunities.

And so we need to educate all individuals within the workforce so that we create a culture of acceptance and a culture of diversity and equity. [00:30:00] And the work we’re doing, we’re trying to make certain that we understand that differences between diversity, equity, accessibility, inclusion, they’re different. But they have to work in tandem with each other. So having males as part of the conversation is crucial.

Kelly: It’s so true. I just love to hear these first experiences. These types of stories are so helpful. I think for everyone to understand that, it’s so fascinating to me that you were in this position and although you love this field, your heart was telling you to do something else and you followed that. That is hard for people to do, because a lot of times we think that we need to do what is “the right thing to do.”

We might feel the need to help support our family or how can I leave this position. And it’s for something that I don’t know how that’s going to turn [00:31:00] out. I just wonder what was going through your mind at that time that really made you be like, it’s okay. I’m going.

Carol: Yeah. I don’t want to overuse the word passion, but I do think that each one of us, my husband often says this, when you find a job that you love, it’s no longer work. Cause work is in, and by definition there’s some energy you’ve got to put into it and it takes a lot.

And when you find a job or a career that you believe deeply that what you’re doing is making a difference, and that your skills are aligned with the field, then you know that you’ve done the right job, or that you’ve selected the right career. For me, this idea of kind of what skills make us successful.

And you and I talked about hard skills versus soft skills. I have a board member who actually uses the expression that STEM is not about the disciplines of science, technology, engineering, and math. [00:32:00] But instead STEM is strategies that engage minds. So if you feel you’re in a position in which you’re able to engage your mind in the work, and feel like you’re actually advancing the field because of your contributions, that’s when you know you found something that is a good fit.

Kelly: I love that. I’m writing notes here because I’m like, wow, that’s so great. I also want to do a quick little shift here. I don’t want to forgoe your complete story because it’s been so fascinating, but I also want to make sure that we have enough time to talk a little bit more about some of the work that you’re doing now, because I know we’ve chatted and there’s just some really, really amazing things that are out there that I’d love to make sure you have time and space to talk about.

Carol: Yeah, absolutely. Before we go to that current work, I do want to share one thing with you, which is along that story or that pathway to where I am. One of the [00:33:00] challenges that we face as females is that I have four children. So somewhere along my professional journey, I had to make a decision about whether or not I could continue in my profession or that I wanted to be at home. And maybe like all good people, I wanted both.

So in 1990, when I gave birth to my first daughter, I decided that as much as I loved teaching, I really wanted a big family and I wanted to be at home with my children. So I quit my teaching job, which was really difficult for me, both financially, because my husband was a special education teacher for 30 years.

But it was also difficult for me because I loved my job as a teacher, but I also wanted desperately to be an at-home mom. So after that decision, my husband and I financially just couldn’t do it. [00:34:00] So that’s when I was introduced to the Smithsonian.

So I want you to know this. I hired a woman for $25, this was in 1990, to look at my resume and to tell me, what can I do that will allow me to have both. A job and to stay at home.

Kelly: And figure out your transferable skills? I love it.

Carol: And she decided that I was a writer and I was like, oh no, I’ve never been a writer. “No, no, no, no. You’re a writer.”

And she told me, what on my resume showed that I was a writer. So she was looking for the skills that she believed could put me in a position where I was writer and she told me, this is amazing for $25. I got so much out of it. She said to me, Carol, I don’t care where you go. I don’t care if you’re in a shopping line and the woman behind the register or the man behind the register says to me, oh, well, what do you do for a living?

She said, tell them, I’m a writer. I did that. She’s like, I want you to put in your [00:35:00] mind that this is who you are. I want it to become a part of your identity. And then I’m going to help you find jobs. That’s how long ago this was, like wanted ads, we’re physically circling wanted ads that will align with that skill of being a writer.

And she did. And the very first place that she’s identified was the Smithsonian to be a curriculum developer. So I went to the interview and I had just had a baby. And I explained that I was very interested in this position, but I didn’t tell them I wasn’t going to take it full time.

They ended up offering the job to me and I asked, can I do this from home? They looked at me strangely and said, there, there’s no such thing. The job is here, at the Smithsonian. So long story short, I ended working as a consultant for them for an entire year while I worked at home. I love this and raised my first baby.[00:36:00]

And at the end of the year, they offered me a job. Would you like to be a full-time curriculum developer? And I said, oh, absolutely. Can I do it at home? And they said, no, you can’t. You have to be here. I said, well, then I’m not interested. Three months. True story. Three months later, they came back with an offer for me to work onsite one day and telework, which didn’t exist.

There was no telework for four days. And I did that for 11 years, Kelly. So what I’m saying is yes, decide what it is that you really want in life set your priorities, and don’t be afraid. Don’t be afraid to tell people what those priorities are.

Even when the world wasn’t really ready for telework at the time. Which was good for me because it meant that I could be an at-home mom during the day and work at night because there were no rules around that.

Kelly: Yeah. I am so glad that you shared this story. I’m a mother too, so I completely understand and appreciate that.[00:37:00]

I had a similar situation where I was traveling quite extensively and I really wanted to be home and it was a scary leap at the time. But again, you think back to this and I just didn’t. There were things I just wasn’t willing to compromise on. That thing that I really was very like in my heart, that is what I needed to be there for, was to help with the kids, they were little. It did, it worked out, but you have to know that in yourself and not be scared.

And I think that’s the best thing. That’s like the best message out of this is that when you set those priorities, it’s okay. And it’s okay that your priorities might be different from another person. I always say this, not every mother chooses that. I’m the first to say, I did it.

And I’m so glad that I did it. I’m glad I did it at that age group that when the children were young, but I then realized once they started [00:38:00] getting into school, that I was like, you know what, I’m at a different place now. And this is not really for me right now. It changes and it’s okay that it changes and it’s okay that someone thinks differently than you.

And that just means that’s not the right opportunity.

Carol: That’s right. And you also have to find an organization or a company that has a very similar view. The Smithsonian, it was absolutely the right place to test something that’s innovative in 1990. And when you were hired by the Smithsonian, for example, they’ll say to you, and this is the truth.

Welcome to the family. 6500 employees and 7-10,000 volunteers. It’s a big place. But they still the belief in the safety of individuals, for example, right now during COVID-19, the safety of its employees are paramount. And we have a leader, Secretary Bunch who really believes that, so you have to find a place where [00:39:00] not only your skills align with their needs, but you also have these kind of basic fundamental beliefs that are also in alignment.

Kelly: I completely agree. And there really is a place for whatever it is that your beliefs are. That’s the thing that I know most people think “I’ll never find it.” I mean, there really is.

There are places that you’ll find. Thank you so much for sharing that. We shifted over here a little bit, but while we do have a few minutes left I would love to hear a little bit more about some of this amazing work that you’re doing. I know we’ve talked about a few things that are very exciting, but I’m curious to see which one you’d like to highlight.

Carol: So I’ll talk about three things. We have three primary goals at the Smithsonian Science Education Center. Our mission is transforming K-12 education through science, in collaboration with communities across the globe. We work nationally as well as [00:40:00] internationally. But we deeply believe in this idea of partnering with others.

At the heart of our work is, how can you improve K-12 education using science as the hook? In the United States, we focus on working with school districts across the country to either provide inquiry-based instructional materials for them, something like Smithsonian science for the classroom is a good example, that helps teachers in grades K to eight scaffold their teaching, so that students are an engaging in scientific phenomenon, making sense of those scientific phenomenon, and kind of expanding their thinking about them.

We also work with school districts across the country to help them map out their plans for how to bring this kind of STEM teaching and learning into their schools. We just had an Action Planning Institute that [00:41:00] we offered for free to the public. Why? Because we get sponsors who are very supportive of that work and Johnson and Johnson, Burroughs Welcome Fund, Gordon Betty Moore foundation, lots of groups support our work.

And these schools were able to think through, how do you still continue to teach science education, STEM education, even though schools might be shut down? Or there’s a massive digital divide in our region? What is it that we as educators need to be able to understand and to be able to act, to change our thinking?

So not only do we teach students with this discover, understand, act. We also work with school districts in that way. We help them discover what teaching looks like from their region or their place in the community, we have them understand, like dig into all of the literature and the experts, learn from them. And then act, use your new knowledge to make a change in your teaching.

[00:42:00] And then we apply that to the way we teach students. Like what I described earlier in our Smithsonian Science for Global Goals Project is focused on the UN sustainable development goals, and we dive into these very complex social scientific issues like climate change or COVID-19 as a pandemic. And we educate students using that same framework.

Kelly: That’s fantastic. The first thing I’m thinking of is, and I don’t know if you want to dive into this at all, but the first thing I’m thinking is what are the adjustments in the way that you’re teaching these schools as things have moved in this virtual environment?

And I say that because there are in some cases, the virtual environment, although it’s not in person, in some cases, at least it’s a good alternative, but what happens when there are struggles with like computer access or internet access?

Carol: Yeah. So you asked about, is there [00:43:00] any kind of shift in our thinking because of this and it, there absolutely is.

So first of all, and we’re not the only ones to highlight this, everyone’s been talking about the fact that COVID-19 has uncovered some of the most incredibly difficult disparities that exist in education. And one of them is the digital divide.

One of the things that have really helped us is that one, we’ve recognized that our work while predominantly is face to face with school districts, ministries of education, state education agencies, that there’s a lot you can do in the virtual world together to advance STEM education at the professional development level.

But what we’ve recognized as others have as well, is that there is a true digital divide. You have to provide resources to students along a continuum, from low tech [00:44:00] to medium tech to high tech. Many of our schools have grab and go centers. I’ll use LA USD as an example, they have done an excellent job of ensuring that students who do not have access to computers at home and may even receive their lunch and their breakfast from school, have a place where parents can go and pick up these breakfasts and lunch.

Can pick up a packet of materials that allow their students to be able to have access to content, even though they may not have access to computers. And so the assumption is that students can’t, not all students and only 78% of the country has access to some form of broadband.

Well, that means that 22% or so, that don’t. So we have to be able to design, develop solutions that fall along that continuum.

Kelly: Yeah. Glad you brought up the meals in [00:45:00] schools too, because I can’t remember the percentages, but that’s been a huge discussion going on around here the entire time. At least in my children’s school district, we had volunteers because there were some parents that couldn’t even get to the school to pick up the meals.

So we had volunteers that were bringing them to their houses. This is a real issue because a large percentage of students may only eat while in school.

Carol: And thank goodness. Schools provide a lot of wraparound services. The story that I told you in terms of my own upbringing, I had a very strong sense of inequities from the very beginning. And I think that it is really crucial that no matter what you do as a career, that if something is driving you to be solutions driven, follow that path.

And so for me, it’s the fact that I also see schools [00:46:00] and teachers and educators in general as providing these wraparound services to families that they may not have access. Whether it’s social services, my husband was a special education teacher for 30 years, whether it’s special education services, whether it’s food. Breakfast and lunch.

It’s afterschool service providers for families who may have two jobs and don’t have the ability to pay for after-school programming. Or it’s a group that we partner with, which is Horizons Greater Washington. Horizons is a national group that provides programming to students.

I think there’s like 90 different affiliations of the Horizons program. We work with Horizons Greater Washington in Washington, DC. They provide summer school programming to students who don’t have access to summer school programming because their parents can afford it.

There is no cost to these students. Private [00:47:00] schools donate their space, and the summer institutions like the Smithsonian, donate our time and our expertise and our curriculum like Smithsonian science for the classroom, so that these students can learn. And then we take them to the museums for field trips.

But what did we do this summer? It was closed down, right? So we helped Horizons Greater Washington as they developed a virtual program. We literally packed up, with their help, packed up materials of science equipment and stuff that we could then ship to people’s students’ homes, thanks to Horizons. And students were able to do hands-on science in their homes with some virtual support.

We’re working with other countries like Indonesia and Mexico through the state department to develop television programming to help students be educated through their TVs. So that’s kind of what you would consider [00:48:00] medium tech.

So we’re addressing this digital divide, not just by handing computers to students cause that’s often not the solution. It’s helping kind of understand how do you provide services along that range. Our Undersecretary for Science, Ruki Neuhold-Ravikumar, she’s the one who highlighted this kind of framework of low tech to medium tech to high tech, which the Smithsonian is trying to embrace that along that continuum.

Kelly: I’m just so glad. It’s funny because of all the conversations I’ve had that we have really not, maybe one or two have touched on this.

And I think it’s just such an important piece of what’s going on right now that we, although it’s in a ton of other conversations, we tend to think of technology that can enable, whereas we have to remember that it’s just not going to be that way in all cases. I love that you [00:49:00] guys are involved in this way and really trying to make in trying to help and make an impact right now.

Carol: Yeah. And I have to say, it’s great to find a place to work where every time you mentioned where you work, people are like, oh, I know the Smithsonian! So you feel really good because people trust a designated organization, and we are a public service institution. We couldn’t do our work without the support of others.

So, I mentioned several of our donors previously, but there’s a relationship that our Undersecretary for Education has with US Today and USA today, and FedEx, who pulled their resources together to say, okay, so we’re USA today? We’ll print your materials and Hey FedEx, you ship it.

We just shipped thousands of printed, what’s called a road trip, so that people can take a road trips through the Smithsonian and learn. These young kids are learning [00:50:00] all the different science and history and art and culture that comes out of the Smithsonian with these really cool activities.

They might never leave their home, but we’re able to take them to the Smithsonian through this printed guide that our Undersecretary developed in collaboration with other Smithsonian colleagues and partnership with others are able to print it and ship it. So that’s what it takes at a time like this, to address the digital divide.

Kelly: It really does. That’s such an amazing collaboration. When you told me about that, it just warms my heart that there are children out there that could have received something in the mail. I just know the excitement of a child getting something in the mail, right?

Especially now, there’s just not a lot of options of different things to do. And so to be able to go through that, I’m just envisioning children like Oh!

Carol: What I loved about- this is a very, very difficult time for all of us. We’re living a life I don’t think any of us ever [00:51:00] would have expected, but so many people have pulled together their resources to not only, as we did with the World Health Organization and the Intern Academy Partnership, we’re educating youth across the globe around the underlying science of these basic protective behaviors.

Like why does that chip have to wear a mask? When COVID-19 first happened, everybody’s first gut reaction was, well, let’s put together a website and list all of the digital resources that you can have access to since you’re not in school. That was great. Everyone did that.

They pulled together, but then we quickly realized, well, what do we do with the 22% of the kids, or more in some regions of the United States, who don’t have access to computers. Or they have a computer in their home, but that they’re sharing that amongst six. It takes collaboration,

Kelly: And thinking back to all the other basic [00:52:00] necessities, like food. Of course, no one’s necessarily thinking about learning in their household, if they’re worried about food.

Carol: To go back to your theme about skills, I think developing our skills today is very different than it was in the past generations. Where you could learn one thing, focus on that one thing and really be successful even in one career, your entire life.

Today as we know, people are moving, my four adult children, they’re moving from job to job while building a really robust profession. But they have to have a very transdisciplinary skillset. It is not just about, okay you know science, great. You can become a scientist. You have to have a variety of skills that feed into that profession. So we think about this in a very [00:53:00] trans disciplinary way.

Kelly: When you think about your story too, though, it really aligns with that so clearly, at least in my mind. When you think about you having those early experiences in that medical center and that love for STEM, just really ingraining yourself there, still knowing and going on to teaching, and then that transfer into writing, but into curriculum development, it seems so natural.

But again, most people, especially when you’re in it, or you don’t understand that these are skills that you’re picking up along the way, these topsy turvy crazy career paths, and I say that like this because the career path isn’t just this one straight line, but every little step you take you’re adding more to your backpack of skills. Whatever passion you have, if you follow that you can figure out what’s in that backpack that is applicable.

And then what else you need to learn too. Because now this is the great thing,[00:54:00] there are so many opportunities whether or not you have the technical access or not. There are plenty of opportunities to learn additional things. I know when my family decided to buy a bakery, I had never really used social media and I needed to figure that out. And I did.

Carol: That’s right. And I think that for folks who are new to their career path, and I love the term pathway, as opposed to say pipeline. They’re the STEM pipeline, a pipeline is very unidirectional. But I love this idea of a pathway because it is never that simple.

And when you’re entering your profession, understand that. Try not to get to the top too quickly. Because when you do that, you’ll realize when you get to that higher level, you don’t have the right skills and it becomes a very difficult profession. [00:55:00] So be patient, some of us, my mother retired at 80 from the Mayor’s Office in Pittsburgh.

So she wrote their proclamations. She was a writer, didn’t have past a high school degree, but headed advanced to that because of her social skills as well as her written skills. And I think this idea that you may not know what your future holds, but anytime you’ve ever listened to a really good mentor panel, each person telling their story makes you realize, wow, I would’ve never known that the Undersecretary of Education didn’t go to college right away, then went to community college, but had to drop out of community college cause she had her first child and now look at her, oh my gosh, I would have never known that.

And so it gives you this hope that your path may not be achieved immediately your goals, but you will get there with persistence.

Kelly: So true. And I think your story today has really given other people that kind of hope [00:56:00] too.

Thank you so much for sharing that. I like to ask a little open-ended question here at the end, just whatever last parting thoughts you’d like to leave with the audience today, I’ll leave it up to you.

Carol: I would say that while we’re in difficult times right now, and many of us are not connected to one another necessarily physically in the same space. Finding opportunities to learn from one another right now, as someone who cares deeply about learning and teaching, there are a lot of free resources that are available to us right now to advance our skills.

I would just recommend that people take advantage of the opportunities, whether it’s on EdX and you’re able to take a few courses that might lead to a micro degree or something like that, or whether it is the ability to learn from organizations like the Smithsonian who are offering free coursework over several days to [00:57:00] advance your STEM education knowledge, take advantage of it.

I hope that we as a field continue to offer these kinds of experiences to people to learn. Because you’re never finished developing your skills, you’re never finished filling up that tool box or that backpack.

Kelly: It is so true. And just like your mother retiring at 80. We talk about that all the time, my husband and I. I mean, how would you just stop, maybe like what people call work. But when you love it, it doesn’t feel like that. Just all those added experiences, even if it’s just coming to the zoo or the museum or learning from those things, you don’t have to do it for any particular reason. It’s just fun.

Carol: Become a lifelong learner and find places to learn whether they are online in these free courses or whether there are places like the zoo. There are an other informal places like museums, there are places. Become a lifelong learner. [00:58:00]

Kelly: That is like the best parting advice, lifelong learner.

So there you have it everybody. Carol, thank you so much for joining us today. If you all would like to follow Carol, she is available on LinkedIn at Carol O’Donnell and the Smithsonian Science Education Center is available on Twitter @Smithsonianscie and they’re also on Facebook and they have a YouTube channel at Smithsonian Science Center Education, but really amazing resources. I’ve been watching some of the videos. My kids love them. I love them. Check them out because they’re really wonderful. And I really appreciate you spending the time with us today, Carol.

And I thank everyone out there for listening into Let’s Talk About Skills, Baby.

The podcast or the YouTube channel is where you can find us. We’re on iTunes, Spotify, or [00:59:00] YouTube at Let’s Talk About Skills, Baby. And if anyone wants to follow me, I’m available on all the socials at Kelly Ryan Bailey.

Thank you again and hope you all have wonderful day.

Carol: Thank you, Kelly.