Navigating Your Career as a Military Spouse

Episode Transcript

Kelly: . [00:00:00] You’re listening to Let’s Talk About Skills, Baby. I’m Kelly Ryan Bailey, and this season, we’re talking all about The Great Resignation. The global pandemic disrupted so much for so many, and one of the largest effects has been on where, when, why, and how we make a living. We’re taking a look at why people have been shifting jobs, paths, and careers at such an accelerated rate and how leaders from different industries are navigating this challenging time. Hope you enjoy this episode.

 Hey skills nerds, with me today is Cleo Hynal. Cleo is the director of Lifecycle Marketing at Alation. Thank you so much for joining us today, Cleo.

Cleo: Thank you for having me. I’m excited to be here.

Kelly: I was really looking forward to having you on the show, especially after reading that LinkedIn article that our mutual friend Michelle Smith sent along. It’s [00:01:00] titled Can the Hybrid Workplace Help Military Spouses Careers, which we will definitely make sure we link in the show notes by the way. But I just thought you really have such an interesting perspective as a person who has had to navigate job and career shifts many times. And now you work for an organization that supports remote working as well.

Cleo: Yeah, it’s been a really interesting journey. And what’s also interesting to me is that I wrote this article first in June, there’s a military spouse appreciation day. It was the 20th year of the longest American war. And I thought about publishing it then, and then I just felt intimidated to put it out there.

And after awhile, I was like, you know what? No. And then there was this other event in my life where again, there was another move. Two moves in less than a year, which happens a lot or can happen with military life. And so I felt like I wanted to put it out there because it was such a great feeling to be able to tell my boss [00:02:00] directly and say, Hey, I’m going to move again, I know it’s not gonna impact my job. And her to say, yep, Nebraska sounds like probably going to be cold in the winter, but it has wifi and an airport. So you’re welcome to keep your job.

And so there wasn’t a conversation about potentially job loss and over this last year, I’m in Rhode Island right now, which has a naval war college. And there’s a lot of other schools for military personnel. A lot of people come here for very short stints for schools, and it makes it even harder for military spouses to have jobs, because if you’re here for a year or less it’s hard to find new job.

So this hybrid environment is really exciting for me in a way to be able to say, Hey, I’m going to keep the job that I got when I was in DC. I’m having it in Rhode Island and I’m moving to Nebraska and who knows what else? And I love this company I’m working with. I love my job. And they are allowing me to do that. the really sad and terrible [00:03:00] things of the pandemic, I don’t want to minimize that, there there’s some silver linings.

Kelly: It’s so true. And I’m really just glad that you went out there and posted that article because I just think people don’t realize if you haven’t experienced that in any way, it’s hard to really understand. And I think the way that you describe it really brought us into what that experience looked like.

And I know that I’m sure so many other military spouses were like, yes, finally. But I also feel like with other employers reading that and understanding what people are going through, this is just one of the many challenges that we’re all dealing with. But that just happens to be such a huge challenge and it really a difference for a person and a family, and like a larger community really. Cause you’re going to be part of so many various different communities.

Cleo: Yeah, absolutely. And not wanting to be solely defined by one as we all are people with multiple aspects to our life. The unemployment rate for military spouses is typically several times that [00:04:00] of the population, it’s around 25%. Which is huge, and some of it is because you have to get recertified whenever teary team change state.

And so there’s still so many ways that, I’m especially lucky because I have a job that I can do in different places, but the job I have right now before the pandemic, it would have been a Silicon Valley based role. Actually when I applied from the role it was still written, and that’s a tip for the listeners, it was still written San Francisco Bay area. And I said, Hey, I really want this job, I think I’m amazing. I can do a great job at it. But would it be a concentration of letting me be remote? And I knew that there was that opportunity because of the environment, because elation is the way that it is now.

It’s really put in that policy more broadly, but at the time it was still not so much. So I think that being able to dare have that conversation is also important.

Kelly: Well, that brings up a really good point. And it was funny because I was about to ask a question in a totally different direction. But when you mentioned that, that [00:05:00] you went out and you said like, well, I just want to see if this is still an opportunity. Did you happen to know someone at the organization to have that conversation or was that like a cold out of the blue conversation?

Cleo: This one was, I knew someone. I have done it as well with other organizations where I did not. And I think it can go either way. This one I did know, and so definitely the power of the network is a big one. I had started my career in Silicon Valley in-person at the office and then took a couple of detours.

And when I was looking back I talked with I knew and I say this looks really interesting. And they said, yeah, look at it. And then I was able to say, is there some flexibility and talk with the recruiter about it.

Kelly: I’m so glad you mentioned that. And I have done that plenty of times too, so I totally agree. Anyone that’s listening, even if you don’t know somebody, it’s always great when you do, but even if you don’t, this is a question that you shouldn’t be shy about. You should jump in there and ask no matter what. [00:06:00] So thanks for pointing that out.

The interesting thing about the article and sort of this moment in time, we’re also focused on these things because of the pandemic, but you’ve been a military spouse. So it sounds like, and at least definitely in the article, you have a different perspective and that was before COVID came along. So my question is what was the biggest issue, this period of time with COVID, with the pandemic, that was uncovered that you already knew with your experience?

Cleo: Yeah. I think that the biggest issue is that sometimes, and I think a lot of people experiencing that, is that we put a premium on geography that isn’t necessarily there, is one issue. The other is that we may judge people’s loyalty on certain external criteria that may not necessarily be the ones that are most important to have a high-performing employee.

What I’m saying here is, I am not the only one and I’ve done it and [00:07:00] I’m pretty confident person, who has hidden the fact that I was military spouse when applying for jobs. Because I didn’t want people to think that I would be a short timer or that my husband’s, which a lot of people would know a little bit about the military as a pretty all encompassing job.

There’s deployments, there’s a lot of things that come into play with that. And therefore, there may be a perception from the employer that the employee is not as dedicated as not all in as they would want them to be. And therefore put that bias on top of them. And so those are two things that I think I had seen before.

Specifically, I’ve been lucky in certain ways. There’s so many different branches and roles in the military. My husband has had some privileges and then otherwise we’ve also moved to very different places in the country. We lived in California and Louisiana and Virginia Beach and Virginia.

And now we’re in Rhode Island. We’re going to Nebraska. So there’s a lot. And a lot of different addresses. And those moves can happen pretty suddenly, [00:08:00] but it doesn’t necessarily mean that the work that I was doing couldn’t continue to be done. And sometimes it takes a person that can see beyond a couple of items.

So I worked in consulting management before that, where I would go to the customer site. And, I was basically on a plane all the time. But I was still very, very intimidated to ask my boss about moving location. He said at the time, yeah, no, that’s fine. I’m fine with you being there, as long as you can be at the client’s site.

You have a laptop, you can work, you can continue to be high-performing. I had built a relationship already with this boss, so he knew that I was a dedicated employee and that he wanted to keep me. Even despite that, there’s a lot of people in the organization that had a problem with the idea of me going to different plays, where there wasn’t a necessarily an office or whatnot.

And those were just per external perceptions that were an issue that. The pandemic brought to light that there needs to be a certain productivity that some people are better at working remotely. Some people like the hybrid [00:09:00] and some people really like to be in person. Where your office is, does necessarily mean that you’re going to be the most dedicated employee or the most employee.

Kelly: So true. The other thing that I’m thinking about with what you just described, obviously, with a lot of people now having, well, forced into virtual work. But now understanding that there is an option that maybe I don’t have to live near this office to work this job. The one thing that I’ve been hearing a lot are when people do move locations, sometimes the companies are right-sizing their salaries. Has that ever happened to you?

Cleo: Yeah. So I have been very lucky that I have not had that happened to me. However I will say Alation does have, the company I work for now, has a couple of different tiers. And I think a lot of companies have that or depending on where you are. But I have not had that happened to me.

I know it happens depending on your location, I don’t know that I necessarily have a very strong opinion one way or another. I do think [00:10:00] that for a lot of people, and I know it’s a very personal choice, but they would rather keep the job than not have the job at all.

Kelly: Definitely, I hear you there. The other thing I wanted to talk about was because you have this very unique experiences as we’ve described. I’m curious, what was the most valuable skill for you as you were navigating your career on the move?

Cleo: it’s always hard to pinpoint one, right? Because we all have an ensemble of skills. I have learned, like many people, there are certain skills that I don’t know are necessarily innate, but I have learned and I’ve developed. And one of them that I have developed is putting myself out there more and being vulnerable.

And it’s a cliche now, but reaching out to people and accepting that sometimes they will reach back out and sometimes they won’t. Because that’s always the scariest, right? When you put yourself out there, what is scary about? Is it scary that they might judge you for [00:11:00] being too outspoken? Or that they just don’t want to have a relationship with you that you’re trying to have with them?

So, moving all the time means a couple of things. On a personal level, it means finding new friends, finding a new pediatrician, doctor, dentist, a haircut. All those different things. But that really fundamentally finding people that you can talk to and humans and network. And part of that is daring to, once your at meetings and one of the playgrounds say, Hey, do you want to exchange numbers?

That’s kind of scary sometimes. And in the workplace, there’s a similar behavior. I joined Alation fully remote in the pandemic, having never met most or all of my coworkers, and we have an active Slack channel. So I made myself join groups and write things in the channels and share things about myself and comment on other people sharing.

As well as reaching out to people [00:12:00] one-to-one and say, Hey, I really loved your comment in that meeting that we had. Or just small things. It doesn’t need to be like, let’s be best friends right now. It can be just a small connection that we need to build, that were so much easier to build when you’re at the water cooler, but we need to do them remotely.

Kelly: I love that you pointed out sort of this networking. Prior to us jumping in here to record this session, we had talked a little bit about some of the ways that you learned to network remotely. And you mentioned you have this system to purposefully create connection. I think it would be so helpful if you don’t mind sharing that.

Cleo: Yeah. So there’s a couple of things that I do almost as a system probably. Most companies I’ve been at have some form of all hands meeting or all company meeting. When I am in one of those, I try always to write down the name of the person that I haven’t connected with before, write down what they wrote and then just reach out to them via Slack [00:13:00] or via some other means of communication saying, Hey, I really loved your comment, or I think I could help you here because I did this. That brings me to my second point is, in an organization where you might know a lot of people, or there’s not a lot of few new faces, what I would always do when I was in the McChrystal group was listen for places where I can help other people or where I need help.

And then make it a point to at least at the end of every of those all hands meeting and have one person that I was going to go and connect with. That was a way that I could make sure, because it’s so easy to just live in your little pod in isolation is to make sure that I’m expanding my network.

And that diversifies the different voices that I hear. And I don’t think that it’s necessarily just for me, but I think is generally really healthy for your work.

Kelly: All really, really good points. And I’m curious your thoughts on, camera on/camera off when you have those all hands meetings?

Cleo: Oh, it’s so funny because that’s part of those [00:14:00] things that maybe we date ourselves when we say like, oh, 10 years ago, it was just such a different world. Now it’s just become so accepted to have the camera on. I think that one of the things that has really evolved has been how accepted is to have camera on. And I really do enjoy seeing people.

At McChrystal Group, about 10 years ago, we used to tell a lot of our customers to try to have camera on. So first a lot of them were like, I don’t even have a camera on my computer, how am I getting a camera? Even at that time, it was not a huge purchase, but there was such a big resistance.

And I remember more than one tell me, you know what I just tried this camera thing and for the first time I could see on my counterpart’s face, that they weren’t understanding what it was saying. And I if I hadn’t been on the phone, I wouldn’t have understood that they didn’t get what I was saying.

And I think especially in complicated relationship or transactional relationship, camera on can be a very, very useful tool.

Kelly: I have to agree. And I will just add that I am someone who [00:15:00] has been working virtually for, I’m trying to think here since 2007. Most of the businesses that I’ve been involved in starting in the last couple of years, I’ve never actually met some of the people in-person. So I can say that when I say I work remotely, it’s a lot. I have to agree with the camera on.

And I know sometimes we get frustrated about, oh, I have to do my hair and makeup, all of it. But I do think there’s something. There are so much, in terms of communication, so much that happens beyond verbal communication. So much more that happens when you can see person. I just feel more connected to that person.

I know everyone is different with that, but there’s just something about, I feel like I’m looking at that person, even though it might not seem that way on their end. Like, it feels like we can be here together in a way.

Cleo: Yeah. One of my other passions is paradoxes and polarities. Which often means bringing together things that are seemingly opposite [00:16:00] that need to co-exist. And I think the camera on camera off probably is one of those polarities where there’s moments. I’ve had Zoom headaches that I think at this point, we’ve all experienced Zoom headaches where you’ve been in front of the screen for hours and hours, and you just need a break. And I’ve had one or two of those where I’ve asked a person who works for me specifically, I like to do it with either them or my direct boss or someone that I know quite well to say, Hey, I just need to be on the phones.

And then I can take a walk around the block and we can talk about things that don’t necessarily need to be projected. And I can get out of my Zoom headache, and I can get out of the house and I can move. And so there’s advantages to sometimes some of those on the phone only conversation. But I think that like most things, they need to be purposefully chosen.

Kelly: I’m nodding my head in agreement as well, I know not everyone sees us. There are those moments, and we just have to kind of roll with them. I may have stopped you when you were going through your system, as to how you’re purposely creating connection virtually.

Cleo: Yeah, I think I have maybe [00:17:00] two other things that I would mention. Everybody has a need to find their rhythm. I know know a lot of us are at the mercy of, Hey I have a sick kid and I have this thing happening and now my boss just sent me an email. So I understand that there’s a lot of the unpredictable that happens, but there was also a certain amount of routine in your life.

And at certain point in my life when I was in consulting for almost a decade, there’s the fly in and fly out in the week. And on my way to the airport and the fly out, I would always try to make it a point of being like, okay, is there someone that I need to inform or share something with someone that has happened this week that I may not have thought about?

 Or if I was driving to the airport, if I had a rental car, I would call someone. And it was like a time to call also because we also get so, and I definitely would much prefer writing than talking sometimes, but a lot gets lost in that context. And so I’d be like, okay, there’s a point in that week where I can kind of almost spontaneously call some of my coworkers and say, Hey, this happened, let’s talk about it and it [00:18:00] creates the connection.

And it allows to really provide the context that is not necessarily just a transactional exchange. So I think those are maybe two pillars, I would say. The first one would be use large meetings, which sometimes can seem maybe a little bit boring or that you’re just there to absorb information. To think about okay, I’m absorbing the information, what are the actions that I’m going to create out of that meeting? And how do those actions drive me to connect with other people around the organization? Who can I help and who can help me?

And then the second would be, find places in your rhythm, your weekly rhythm, that are dedicated to the I”m going to reach out to someone to provide context or to get their ideas on stuff’.

Kelly: Those are so great. I really do think that a lot of people are going to be listening in here and taking these away, especially in the environment, like we said that we’re in now. You also shared a story with me about a colleague that reached out that had noticed you were in this new [00:19:00] organization and notice that you were taking some of these actions.

Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Cleo: When I first joined Alation within a couple hours, I had a person who had reached out to me on LinkedIn and reached out to me on Slack.

And he said, Hey, I just wanted to welcome you to the organization. I know it’s really hard to onboard remotely. If you need anything, I’ve been here for awhile. Feel free to ask. And he doesn’t work in my team, he doesn’t work for me or with me, not even my department. And it was so meaningful to me.

And he’s a smart person because to this day, if he asks me something, I’ll definitely go out of my way to go and help. But at the time it really was really meaningful. So I think it goes with like, what are the actions you can take to create those connection? Think about the new people that are onboarding.

If you’re not onboarding remotely, think about the people that are onboarding remotely and what you can do. So that is one story. And I think we had talked a little bit about a second story, but I wanted to put that one out there first.

Kelly: I love that story. And I agree. If you see that happening in your organization that [00:20:00] you’ve been in, for anyone listening, definitely reach out to those new folks and way to make connections.

Cleo: Yeah. I also had a coworker recently reach out to me and say, Hey, I really want to understand how you work, what you do in this organization, because I see you pop up in different places that don’t necessarily always line up with your job description. And he didn’t say it that way, he said it in much more kind of diplomatic way. In no way did it come off as, I just want to make sure to say, like, it didn’t come off as an acquisition, it was more curiosity. And one of the things that I’ve learned recently and it’s a skill definitely want to share is that when you join a new job, we all know that we need to do some form of negotiation of salary, or maybe even time off and title. The one thing that you can also talk about is your job description.

And when I joined this organization, the job description was super interesting to me and fundamentally it was a job I was very very passionate about. And we’ll talk about full paradox and polarities so it’s not an [00:21:00] opposition to that. But in addition to that, there were a couple of other things that I knew the organization was gearing up and preparing itself to do.

And I really was interested in to be in the midst of that. And so, I didn’t make it a condition of joining, but I did ask, if those things happen, I would love to be involved. And I know it’s not traditionally part of lifecycle marketing, but I am very interested in this thing so please think of me.

And people indeed have reached out to me on those items. But also I have kept my eye out very much to look for those opportunities and interests. And I grew up in a lot of startups or smaller companies, maybe below a hundred people or below 200 people, where you’re kind of expected to jump into things.

And I think it goes well with my personality. So even though Alation is much bigger than that now, I see a place where I can add value and it interests me and they need me and I can add unique value, I will jump in. [00:22:00] And it has opened, it seems like it may sound just like, oh, you’re doing additional work. How cool.

But it also has ended up being a couple of things. It opens doors, it adds opportunities and it expands your skillset. There’s a lot of buzzwords being said around growth, growth mindset and constant learning. But what does it mean in practice? And I think in practice, it means seeking out opportunities where you can be slightly out of your comfort zone.

And this coworker, after listening to me, he said so you’d basically do the things that interest you? I had to laugh because it’s kind of true. I’m very privileged that way that I love my job and I do things that interest me. I don’t only do things that interest me. Like most of us, we have to do the things, the laundry and the other things that don’t interest us.

But I do think that there is something to be said about raising your hand when you see opportunities that you believe you could contribute to, or you really want to be part of.

Kelly: What struck me most about this story was you negotiating your job [00:23:00] description to focus on things that interest you. Even as we hear the stories unravel. It’s sort of this journey that you’ve had, that’s been very purpose-driven at least that’s the way that I’m seeing it. And just this idea for others listening, I find it so powerful, the idea that we can adjust the way we live our lives, how we’re doing our work, and sort of like sometimes that even drives how we’re living outside of our work experiences too.

I am curious because it’s just so different to me when I hear you talk about a company like Alation. Unfortunately I wish we could sit here and say that all companies are like this, and they’re very open-minded in this way. It just feels like Alation is different. Like, what are they doing that’s different?

Cleo: So what’s really startling to me is, I joined Alation. I had an offer from another organization, which I talk about in my blog, that really wanted me to be committed to a place physically. Which I couldn’t do because my husband’s still in [00:24:00] the military for a couple of years as we talked about.

 On a couple of criteria, they seem more attractive. And I left McChrystal Group, which I had dearly loved and poured my heart and soul. And most of that was due to the culture, I really just love the culture there. And so in my expectation of my next job, I thought well it’s a great development opportunity, but I didn’t expect what I ended up finding, which was a really tremendous culture.

And this culture is in a lot of ways driven by our leadership. We have our C suite executives who are extremely thoughtful and a lot of them, for someone like me who has spent some parts of my life really studying leadership and what it is, it’s interesting to see it reflected that some of them really do the textbook behaviors, that really are empathetic and thoughtful and seeking feedback from people way more junior.

I had a couple of people, I’m two levels below the C-suite and they asked me for feedback on how they [00:25:00] conducted a meeting or how they were. And that’s incredible. And so I think the culture is very purposefully built and driven, and it has been able to maintain itself through a fast growing organization, which I think is tremendous. So I definitely think I’ve been lucky. I do you think that your organization embodies a lot of the values that it has on the walls, which we all know, some companies write them on the walls, but they then don’t live them.

But that said, I do think that even an organization that may not be as excited and tremendous, like a lot of those networking skills and putting yourself out there and talking about what you want to do, being curious and raising your hands, can be great skills and attributes.

Kelly: I’m sure most people would prefer the action versus the writing on the wall as well. So, you’re involved in the marketing team at Alation. How have you adjusted your hiring practices based on the culture of [00:26:00] this organization?

Cleo: So it’s a very interesting and like most high-performing organizations, we’re still trying to push our hiring practice to be even better and more fair. And I know that our HR team especially is definitely constantly thinking of ways to make that better. One thing recently, we’ve grown a lot over the last year and I’ve been part of a lot of interviews.

And I was recently having a conversation with an analyst who mentioned that they were looking at how people having incorporated customer centricity in their organization. And I definitely noticed that in our practices, one of the things that we have really gotten, and I know I personally do is look at whether people who are coming to the organization, not just know that we’re a data catalog and we help organizations find data.

 But they also look at what our customers are doing with the data. How does that connect with them? What is exciting about that for them? That’s something I want to [00:27:00] see in a person that I want to hire. I want to see a person that has done the thinking about what is the impact of the work that we do in our customers, in our end users, and comes back and talks about it.

And doesn’t just talk about, Hey, I’m really good at running marketing programs to get the most leads from leads generated, that can then convert to a different Which is great, they shouldn’t be talking about that if they’re going to go in marketing. But also I would even prefer if they talked to me about the customer centricity and how to make it really powerful and useful for the customer.

Kelly: Does everyone work remotely at Alation?

Cleo: Not everybody works remotely. We have three offices. One in India, one in the Bay Area and one in Salt Lake City. The Salt Lake City one was a pandemic acquisition frankly, because we’ve seen so many people shift to that area. We have people that go into the office depending on the roles.

And I think our HR team was very thoughtful when they rolled out our policies, which was basically you can have jobs [00:28:00] that are fully remote roles like mine. You can have hybrid roles where you kind of go in sometimes and you are remote sometimes. And then you have some in-person roles. And obviously sometimes when we’ve had the Omicron wave, then we have people back home.

But more of those in-person roles, for example we do have a receptionist. That is a role that is more expected to be in the office. And our sales development representatives, most of them are kind of expected to be seen in the office because we’ve seen linked to productivity and a lot of them want to go there.

And so I do think that every company is trying to find that balance. But I think like most things doing it a thoughtful way, having also options for in person and being safe about it. When we meet in person, we had our first marketing, all offsite, that was not compulsory. It was if you felt comfortable to come and meet your coworkers, you could.

And a lot of us were very excited about it and it was in December right before the Omicron wave. So it was nice, but we had a protocol. You have to be [00:29:00] vaccinated, you had to be tested. You tested before when we got to the offsite, they all handed us like the rapid tests. They had a protocol in place and our events director actually has gone through a pandemic certification.

 There are events certifications for running events in this pandemic now. That talk about exactly how to develop protocols for that. Because we all still want to meet and even some of the more introverted people in our team, we’re very excited to be able to see in person, their coworkers.

And so we have to find that that balance.

Kelly: It’s kinda cool to hear that there’s or courses or what have you it’s just when things change and adjust in our world, you start to see all of the things sort of fall with it. And I know we talk a lot about that on the podcast, education and how much it’s keeping up with what’s happening in the world, so that’s why that was just a sort of funny for me to hear.

Cleo: Yeah. Yeah.

I wish I could remember off the top of my head the exact name, but they have [00:30:00] like healthcare professionals that talks so who that people will on events have an understanding of really how to make it as safe as possible.

Kelly: That’s really smart. We’ve talked lots about your experience, the culture there at Alation, the hiring at which been fascinating. But we really didn’t get to dig into, what does Alation do?

Cleo: Alation is a really interesting company because of the culture and how it is, but it is also very interesting company because of the product and the mission that it has. Our vision, our founders vision, was empowering a curious and rational world which is a very inspiring statement.

And they set out to build a data catalog. And that came from a problem set that I know a lot of us that have worked in large organization or with large organization have seen, which is there’s so much knowledge and so much data. And as we know data is always increasing exponentially. It’s [00:31:00] harder and harder to really get your hands around what is the data that I need to be using for my job and where’s the database? And now our company doesn’t have one database, there’s tons of databases.

And there’s been a couple of different technology solutions that sought to tackle that to be able unite the data and the quick answer to this question is that Alation builds a data catalog that allows people to have a broader, better view and search across databases, search data sources, and it has a way to find and understand the data more easily once.

Kelly: What types of data sources within a company are they pulling from, and also maybe an example of how a company is using it?

Cleo: So all sorts. It’s not a great answer, but it is true. That our customers, because our platform is agnostic, there’s all sorts of types of data that our customers use this for. However, [00:32:00] typically we found it is something that you can see as well, reflected in the research on the organizations that typically the more data-driven departments will be some of the first to adopt a data catalog.

For example, the finance team, actually marketing and sales, they want to know about what their customers are doing. And of the things that’s really been accelerated through the pandemic is that a shifting really quickly. We talk about supply chain crisis. So supply chain has a lot of different points of data collection, right?

I like to talk to my sons about the toys on the boats, because then he’ll actually listen to me. When you put the shipments on the ship, that’s one point of data. And when the ship leaves the port, is another point. When it gets to the waters then that’s another point. When he gets to the port, when the containers get off the port, when the port containers get on the bus.

And so there’s a lot of different points of the data that become really important if you want to have models that are more accurate. [00:33:00] And so being able to capture that holistically is part of a lot of data analysts jobs. They they’ll spend a lot of hours trying to think about that and understanding that, and during the pandemic, there’s a lot more places where we thought we knew the data points that were really important, have kind of shifted.

And so being able to discover that within the organization has become increasingly important. And we see a lot of our customers using that to try to connect the dots, to answer questions about what their customers are doing. But also we have several customers in the healthcare space and some of them are using it to try to find cures and vaccines faster by having broader access to a broader dataset that’s not just trapped into silos across the organization, but they can more freely bring it into together without breaking compliance roles and without raking privacy rules.

And so this is a really tough challenge, but it’s a really exciting challenge that really needs the people, the stress, the processes, [00:34:00] and the technology working.

And so Alation brings the technology, but we also work closely with our customers to talk about the behaviors, the governance, the leadership, the strategy that needs to be put in place.

Kelly: I love that purpose of the organization that you mentioned right at the beginning, that is very inspiring. And I’ve worked with a lot of companies as well, the thought of the way you describe siloed data, when you think of like all the different departments, especially in large organizations, they’re all pulling in so many various different data points internally externally, when you’re right.

It’s stuck in one place and you’re trying to make decisions that are sort of more broadly across the organization, you don’t have access to that, it’s really, really difficult. So I could completely see how powerful a tool like this would be. I think in this time too, to see an organization that has really lived through its purpose in so many different ways, besides what it’s offering out into the world as a software, but it’s living that within its culture and the [00:35:00] way that it’s bringing in other people, it’s just quite heartwarming actually.

Cleo: Yeah. One of the ideas that’s fundamental to this is how do you build a data culture? And the ideas how do you build data driven decision making culture? So people that won’t just rely on their gut because as we know increasingly so, gut has a lot of biases in the. Data can too, but how do you treat and understand the data so that you can kind of minimize that and make better decisions in the end, is a really exciting part of my job and something I’m very passionate about.

Kelly: One last question about Alation. Are you finding as you’re digging into this type of work, any deficits on how people understand data and use that to make those decisions? Because I completely agree that having the data is way better than not, but I’ve also seen serious misuse of data.

Cleo: Absolutely. So when we talk about the three pillar capabilities for data culture, which one of them is search and [00:36:00] analytics. So you need to have access to the data, you need to be able to analyze it. But you also need to have two other pillars we talk about, which is data governance and data literacy. And data governance is part of the, you can’t surface like everybody’s name and salaries and you have to be compliant and you have to understand who can access what when, , in a way that should be de-centralized and it should be dynamic. But there needs to be that.

And then the third pillar is something that we see increasingly our customers be really focused on is the data literacy part data literacy is, basically read and write data. That is a skill that is often really intimidating to people who necessarily don’t think of themselves as data literate. However, it is also a very important skill and it’s going to be an increasingly important skill to have.

It’s also something I just really want to encourage people to look into because it’s not as scary as it sounds, and there’s a lot of steps to get there. There’s an increasing the amount of organization, and you’re probably more data literate than you think [00:37:00] you are. But there’s definitely tips and tricks to how you can read and understand the data better. So a lot of large organizations, are you looking at rolling out internal programs to upscale their workforce on data literacy specifically.

And we’re seeing a growing number of programs. MIT has one that they’ve done in partnership with several of our large clients to roll out data literacy within the organization. And if you go online and you Google data literacy, there’s a couple of places where you can have really quick tests and see how data literate you are.

There’s a lot of open source skills that are available for people to upskill yourself and your understanding of data is, how to use it, et cetera. The last thing I’m going to say is, data literacy is also commensurate to the complexity of the data that you have access to. And so one of the places where I think that technology has a role and where I think our data catalog, typically we get really [00:38:00] positive echoes from our customers, is that it makes it easier for people to have and understand data.

Therefore they don’t need to be hardcore SQL writers to be able to pull out data. And the data may be also already there’s Wiki articles that explain what the data is, and so you’re kind of meet people halfway.

Kelly: So we’ve come to the end of our time today, Cleo. But before I wrap up, I have one more question for you personally.

What was the most surprising thing that you learned during the pandemic?

Cleo: I think we all learn things about ourselves. And I think I really had considered myself more of an introvert before the pandemic and now I just crave people. I now find that I understand better the level of balance that I need to have between in person people contact and heads down work.

Kelly: I really appreciate that. I definitely felt that same way. I was like, what year is it?[00:39:00] Thank you Cleo so much for joining us today and sharing. You guys, if you’re interested in getting in touch with Cleo, you can follow her on LinkedIn and Alation is available on their website and then of course, on social via LinkedIn and Twitter.

I highly recommend checking them out. And Cleo, I should also say because some people listening may be interested in working for Alation.

Cleo: We’re hiring a lot, so please check our jobs. We have great recruiters. So if you have questions the jobs, they’re there to answer your questions. Even if you don’t know someone, please reach out. We’re hiring actively.

Kelly: See and reach out just like she said. Talk about asking for remote positions. Take all the advice.

 Thanks for tuning in to Let’s Talk About Skills, Baby, a Growth Network Podcasts production. If any part of this episode resonated with you, we would love for you to share it with a friend or colleague who might feel the same. Feel free [00:40:00] to reach out to me at Kelly Ryan Bailey on social and learn more about the great events and initiatives we have coming up at skillsbaby.com. Thanks again for spending some time with me and most importantly, have a great day.