Mindset Shift: Widening Your Perspective to Tackle Wicked Problems 

Episode Transcript

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

Hi, everyone, welcome to Let’s Talk About Skills, Baby. I am your host Kelly Ryan Bailey. Each week I chat with inspiring visionaries about the skills that make them successful, how they develop those skills, and their innovative approaches to improving skills based hiring and learning around the world. Come learn what skills help you live your best life. This week, I’m joined by Margot Cairnes. Let me introduce Margo, really quickly everyone. Margo has had a global career delivering large scale transformation projects for multinationals and governments. She has presented on leadership and change at the World Economic Forum and shared a stage with Hillary Clinton and Queen Rania of Jordan in New York City’s womenfuture.com. Working as a coach and advisor to boards and top teams in Europe, Asia, the United States and Australia. Margot has used her compelling approach to strategy development to help leaders widen and deepen their thinking, develop creativity, effectively problem solve and develop stronger, more robust stakeholder relationships. Through applying her transformational skills strategy formula and culture change, she has helped the top teams and boards of Fletcher Challenge Energy, BP and Amoco Oil to name a few. Margo has mentored distinguished industry leaders including Paul Anderson, MD of BHP Billington, Les Schirato, MD of Cantarella Brothers Group, Greig Gailey Chairman of Caltex and former President of the BCA, and Dr. Rolf Stromberg Global MD of BP Oil. Hopefully I got close to those pronunciations as well.

Margot Cairnes

Thumbs up.

Kelly Ryan Bailey

Thank you. She is an international best selling author with six books on transformational leadership. She addresses fortune 500 chief executive officers and directors, global political leaders and members of international think tanks as well as organizations which include BHP Billiton, Reserve Bank of Australia, Alcoa, NAV and Levi Strauss. The American Biographical Institute has named Margot one of the great minds of the 21st century. David Williamson who is Australia’s leading playwright, even based his play Corporate Vibes on Margot’s book, Peaceful Chaos. She is an internationally recognized expert on navigating complex change and wicked problems derived from major disruptions including AI, cybersecurity, automation and big data. Margot, my goodness, this is amazing. But honestly, the first question that just came to my mind was when I just described wicked problems, is that just what it means, like crazy problems? Or is that mean something in particular?

Margot Cairnes 

It’s a technical term. We used to have tame problems. But tame problems are you know what the problem is you can solve it. You can measure that you’ve solved it. You can watch someone solving it and learn and do better next time. However, a wicked problem you don’t even know what the problem is. Because every stakeholder thinks the problem is a different problem. So the example I give is brain surgery is a tame problem. Really hard, really complicated takes years to train, right? An amazingly complex tame problem. Changing the health system, as you guys know in America, is a wicked problem. Everybody sees it as different, whether you’re a Democrat or a Republican, wheather your an old person or a young person, whether you’re an alternative practitioner, a nurse, a doctor, a patient, whatever, maybe someone with a disability, everybody sees the problem differently. So if you can’t even define the problem, how can you know if you’ve solved it or not?

Kelly Ryan Bailey

Yeah.

Margot Cairnes 

That’s a wicked problem.

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

Okay

Margot Cairnes 

And because the world is getting more complex, because the world is more connected. More, and, more, and more of our problems are wicked. Now the problem is most of us are trained to solve tame problems. Alright. I’ve got all these degrees, they’re all in solving problems, they’re not in solving wicked problems. Whereas when I was up working at that very top end of business globally, all the problems were wicked, are all wicked. So we had to find whole new ways of dealing with them.

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

Well tell us like what are some of these whole new ways of dealing with these types of problems that you’ve learned over time?

Margot Cairnes 

A lovely little diagram, which I don’t have nearby, so I’ll try and walk you through it. The first is you have to decide, is it a wicked problem? And I have a whole checklist of you know, things you just go through? Are there more than one points of view, are you stuck, you know, is everybody blaming everybody else because you can’t solve it. You know, there’s a whole, are there many dimensions? Is a problem clear? If you looked at the clear problem do six people see the same? There’s all these checklists to go through to see if it’s a wicked problem. And once you know it’s a wicked problem, then you actually visualize the desired outcome. Because you have to get into a different mode. So we have this the Ken Wilber stuff. But we have monological thinking, which is what my degrees trained me to do, where I sit here, and I look at the world and I study the world, and I come up with a nice, neat solution for the world. Then there’s a dialogical way of thinking that means I’m interacting with the world. And as I do that, the world changes and I change. And then there’s translogical thinking. Now translogical thinking is what happens when we meditate, when we pray. When we visualize. We go into an altered alpha state. So the first part is, you’ve got to do the rational thing, and a dialogical thing actually, is this a wicked problem? Then we go into a translogical thing, which is, well, what’s the desired outcome? Now, I’ve worked with groups of people, I’m talking about top teams of major corporations who would not get in the same room. They would not get the same room. The conflict in that team, those teams it was more than one, those teams It was so great that they refused to meet. Firstly, I’d get them to meet. It was a process, a one on one process. But then I’d get them to visualize an outcome and even if they hated each other, even if they haden’t met for six months, in some cases, they all saw the same outcome.

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

Interesting.

Margot Cairnes 

So once we got people to see the same outcome, then you realize that you can’t solve a wicked problem, there is no way to solve a wicked problem. Because as you work with them, they change, right? They say you can’t solve a wicked problem, you just run out of resources. So then you realize that working with the problem, what you’re actually doing is building the capacity in the leaders. You’re building the capacity in the people who are working with the wicked problem. That’s the whole aim of the idea. It’s not to solve the problem. It’s actually to build the capacity so that whatever problem turns up, you can work with it better next time. And this is just I call them living case studies. The wicked problem is just what turned up today, for you to work on. Sorry, I’m talking a lot, but I’ll just give you an example, it’s quite a complex concept. But I did the merger of BP and Mobil oil across Europe. That was a big merger. Then I did the merger of BP and Amoco oil across the Atlantic. Now Amico did not want to be merged with BP if BP was merged with Mobile in Europe? So then we had to go back to Europe and do a de-merger. So that’s a merger, a merger, a de-merger. Now, most people after that collapse, their marriages get wrecked, they end up in hospital, I had a heart attack, you know, they retire. My people, it was the most exciting, interesting, fantastic learning time in their career. Because they weren’t doing a merger, merger and a de-merger. What they were doing was learning to work with wicked problems. And today’s wicked problem was this merger, and then tomorrow’s wicked problem was that merger. And the whole aim of the exercise is to build a people build the relationships, build the community, so that next time wicked problem turns up they can deal with it.

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

I feel like what you were really doing was like changing their mindset, their the way that they’re viewing…

Margot Cairnes 

Everything. And because we did it, logically, that is we did it in relationship. Right. It was actually doing it, they’re learning by doing.

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

Yes.

Margot Cairnes 

And they’re building their relationships, building their sense of self and they’re building their capacity. And then they’re taking that through the whole organization to their people. So these things were, I mean, literally, I used to call the miracles. So my clients would go from being the worst performing division in the world to the best performing division in 18 months. So they go from being the worst industrial site in Australia to being the world benchmark, in 18 months, right? But it was such a different way of working, that people, even today, still don’t understand.

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

Mm hmm. No, I completely agree. And it’s interesting to me how you said too that, you know, in going through education with your degrees, that wasn’t the way that you were trained to through school, it sounds like.

Margot Cairnes 

That’s not exactly true because my first degree was in early childhood education.

Kelly Ryan Bailey

Ah.

Margot Cairnes 

So I’m a trained preschool teacher.

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

Okay.

Right? Now, I happen to have all sorts of other trainings as well. But my basic training was as a preschool teacher. And we’re trained, you go to the child, and you work with the child. Right? So the whole concept of being a preschool teacher is to develop

Margot Cairnes 

the capacity of the child. So, I still did it. They just happened to be the biggest kids in the world.

Kelly Ryan Bailey

Right. That’s so amazing. Thank you so much for describing this in such detail, because I think it’s really helpful to understand what that process is. And it really has to do a lot with your work. But before we kind of jump into your work, I’d love to hear a little bit more about you know, I’ve shared the highlights but a little bit more about your journey to what has led you here today and coming at this with the from the consulting perspective.

Margot Cairnes 

Well, it will not surprise you that my journey has been a wicked problem.

Kelly Ryan Bailey

That doesn’t surprise me.

Margot Cairnes 

I married ridiculously young, had children ridiculously young, went back to university and, I actually had my first child while I was studying to do my first degree.  But I’m curious, now that we’re having this discussion. Because, you know, I, in the whole scheme of things, like you’re actually reminding me I was young when I started having children in the whole scheme of things like I realized and the rest of the world but where I’m from having a baby at 25 was young, you know? So…

Margot Cairnes

I’m an open book sweetheart.  Not where I was from.

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

I know, right, it’s not normally but around in the northeast, in the US, most people are getting married like mid 30s. And then thinking about children. So like for me to be married and having children, you know, 10 years prior to that was sort of like the, you know, the big thing. But the question is, you know, as a mother that is, you know, having this success and also the obvious need of the children to be cared for, you know, and especially with what your daughter went through, I’m curious, not only your thoughts around like, did you ever feel at all, but I can’t think of the right word. But that strain or that stress that you feel making the choice to, like, step away or feeling like you couldn’t go after maybe some of these things, or was that just a? Did you ever struggle with that?

Margot Cairnes

Kelly, I didn’t have a choice. I was a single mother.

Kelly Ryan Bailey

You just kept going? Yeah.

Margot Cairnes

There was nothing else to do.

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

Yeah. It’s interesting. I always find this interesting. I just, I wonder out loud, if men feel the same way. Like as when you’re a mother, you just keep going like, and I don’t know if this is the same? I’d be curious to know anyone can send in messages and let us know. But I’m curious if it’s the same?

Margot Cairnes 

They haven’t got a clue. And they never will.

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

No. No. That’s, so fascinating. It’s so interesting how these dynamics end up playing out. But I really think that a lot of this stuff that we’re talking about has to do with, you know, bringing it kind of back to your story and what you focused on. This idea, because our focus and our view of life, also the perception that we have, right, I’m sure that that also affects people and how they deal with these like wicked problems, as you call them. That particular term, but I’m sure that that everyone has a slightly different view. So let’s bring it back to that for a moment, if you don’t mind. Because everyone has a different way. I mean, it sounds like you really have to personalize this work with each individual.

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

Well, I know you shared the story of this sort of like merger on merger, merger earlier, but maybe walk us through, you know, from the point, like maybe an example story of someone that you’ve worked with, and you know, sort of how, what they were, just the whole project, like, I’m just really curious how you approach this. And again, you let me know, too, like, if this is, how you approach it in the past may not be how you’re going to be approaching it now. But, you know, let me know if there’s different things too.

Margot Cairnes 

So I’ll just start with, there is a change in my way of looking at the world. And what I want to do is teach others, I want to teach the people that do want to do it, the people that do want the responsibility, and the leaders that want to make an ethical choice to work in a way that makes the world a better place.

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

Yeah.

Margot Cairnes 

 So, you asked for an example. Oh it was a long time ago now. But we had a company called Pasminco and it was a mining company. And it was a shocker. One of them on the place called Port Pirie, and they were pumping lead out into the air and all the kids had two or three IQ points lower than anywhere else because of the lead in their blood. They had another mine called Sceptre Mine, which is in the middle of Australia. And so basically it was on Aboriginal land and the Aboriginals were sitting in and they were people patroling the mine with guns. I mean, it was just horrible company. Anyway,

So, I was brought in by the new director. And I worked with him and the advisory board, and the administrator. Now there was another company called Ansett, which was one of our two major airlines at the time that went into administration on the same day. And all the staff was sacked. Company closed, they sold the airplanes everywhere. Now the guy I worked with was this guy Greg Daily, and he said, we’re going to get this company out of administration. And then we’re going to restructure the lead and zinc industry globally. And Margo, you’re going to do the people stuff. I thought he was a nut. I loved him dearly. I’d been working with him for years. I thought he was nuts. But that’s exactly what we did.

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

Yeah.

Margot Cairnes 

So those 36 different lenders all took one cent on the dollar we came out of administration, Pasminco became a company called Oz Minerals. Now, how did I do that? I work one on one with all these people. With the board, with each member of the top team, with the administrators. Then I got them together. We did a lot of work with the subconscious. I did a lot of Jungian [INAUDIBLE]. We did a lot of symbolic work with a lot of visualizing, we did a lot of honesty, and we did a lot of truth telling actually. And I remember we were away with the board and the top team doing their strategy. And the chairman stood up and he said our number one strategic issue is we will do nobody and nothing any harm. Now, this is a dirty, smelly lead and zinc mining and a smelting company. We will do nothing and nobody any harm.

So they became OZ Minerals, no they became Zinifex first. I changed Zinifex and then they were the number one growth stock on the Australian stock market, I continued to work with them. They merged with  Umicore in Europe. They set up Nyrstar and OZ Minerals, two companies at the time worth $6 billion. So I went into a company owing 3.2 billion left with two companies, both worth $6 billion. The staff, there were more staff than before there was another lead in blood. That’s good. How long did it take? About five years from the beginning.

Kelly Ryan Bailey

Five years from the beginning. Okay. Wow

Margot Cairnes

And that’s changing a whole system globally. That’s restructuring globally. That’s just not turning around a company and saying get on with it.

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

Yeah. So ideally, I know, we have talked about this before. But ideally, now your preference is to work with these entrepreneurs that are really like social impact it Do I have that right?

Margot Cairnes

Not just entrepreneurs. A growing number of Managing Directors of big companies have a conscience.

Kelly Ryan Bailey

Mm hmm.

Margot Cairnes

You know? And they want to do something, they want to make the world a better place. I have seen in my career that business can make the world a better place. It can also make the world a worse place. Unfortunately, most of us do not have the skills to help them make the world a better place. We have skills to make them feel good about themselves.

Kelly Ryan Bailey

Yes.

Margot Cairnes 

And you know, it’s good to feel good about yourself, not to be telling yourself lies.

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

Right.

Margot Cairnes 

I’m not sure what’s going on if we’re teaching people to tell themselves lies and then agree with themselves telling lies and not get challenged.

Kelly Ryan Bailey

Right.

Margot Cairnes

And then we have, well in Australia we have with royal commissions. I don’t know what you have in America, but we have royal commissions. And the Royal Commission they’re cheating and they’re lying. And they’re actually funding child prostitution and goodness knows what else and they don’t even know they’re doing it. Because they never looked.

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

Yeah.

Margot Cairnes 

And they’ve never asked them to look. If we go in as a consultant, we want people to like us. But you don’t get people to like you by getting them to look at the truth.

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

Right.

Margot Cairnes

I mean, who cares if they like you. That’s why I charge so much money. You just pay me a lot of money and I don’t care. But I do care that you make the world a better place.

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

Yeah. I was involved

Margot Cairnes 

Guess what, they make…

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

Oh, no, go ahead.

Margot Cairnes 

I was just going to say they make literally billions more dollars, while they made the world a better place.

Kelly Ryan Bailey

And that’s like, it changes the perspective. It’s just like a feel good way. I wasn’t what I was gonna say was I was involved in a forum. I want to say it was less than a month ago. So however many weeks ago, but it was called the circular economy forum. And the idea. I don’t know if you’ve heard of that. Yeah.

Margot Cairnes 

Oh we have a lot of that here.

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

Yeah, and I it was just a fascinating concept to me, like, I’ve heard about sustainable and social impact, and like, all of these things, sort of like, you know, separate, you know, but together, and this was really kind of bringing it all together, like how can we actually do it all together and make the world a better place. And so that businesses, you know, everything along the line, and I just, it really struck me as a whole new way to consider impact at a large scale.

Margot Cairnes 

Absolutely. And we can’t do it by being nice. We can do it by being honest. We can do it by raising our consciousness, we can do it by working way past ourselves for the common good, but we have to do it looking at wicked problems.  Yes.

Kelly Ryan Bailey

Because if we just look at tame problems, we narrow our perspective too much. We see this much. I don’t know if you’ve seen A Social Dilemma, this wonderful new video on Netflix. And you know, Facebook, most successful company in the world, one of them at the moment. And the young men that made all this money, narrowed it down what they were doing to a very narrow thing, and that very narrow thing that they have done is killing our young woman. Literally killing them or getting them to kill themselves. And so harm, you know, increasing suicide, alienation, depression, anxiety, and it’s not that they were bad men, they just have this very narrow perspectives.  Right.

Margot Cairnes

So if you look at the world with a very narrow perspective, you may well make more money. But do you really want to kill people, or have people kill themselves. You want to set up a world that is literally a dangerous place for young people to grow up in?

Kelly Ryan Bailey

Exactly

Margot Cairnes

So the only way we can do is to get people to expand their perspective. And that’s about raising their consciousness, in line with reality, right? It’s not sitting on a mountain top meditating. There’s that lovely story of a monk that was on a mountain meditating, you know, he reached nirvana walked out of the village, fell over dog and kicked it. Right? Reality happens. So unless you can take your nirvana with you into reality it’s not nirvana.

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

Right. No, it’s it’s so fascinating. I mean, there’s so many things that are kind of coming at us these days that can really affect the way that we’re navigating our life. But I find this approach that you have, even though it’s not necessarily new, right? It’s just maybe popular right now. But especially because of what’s going on in this time of COVID. Because I think so many people are, are struggling with how to handle what life has sort of thrown at us. And of course, everyone has different levels of struggle, right. But even for some of us, who would have said that we were doing okay, it’s still difficult. And this is sort of a new way of bringing in, I would say, a new way of learning. Because, you know, typically, we all especially at high levels, we all rely on sort of the traditional forms of education, like if I’m not managing my company correctly, or you know, things start to fail, like, maybe I need to go back for that MBA that I meant to do. But this is a whole new, foundational, and quite honestly, the whole purpose of why I created this podcast was because these foundational, again, I say skills, but these foundational pieces of life help you personally and professionally.

Margot Cairnes 

Well, what we know is you take yourself everywhere you go. So you know, if various parts of your life aren’t working the place to start the change is yourself. But if it stays with you, then your ego goes, all you’re doing is throwing your ego. And you can’t really honestly face the problems that we have and embrace the magnitude of those problems from a place of ego.

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

So Margo, is there something that you do? Like, I wonder too, because you’ve got you’ve again, going back to your beginnings, you know, you’ve had challenges in your life as well. Are there things that you do now, every day that, you know, help you sort of keep this really grounded in this particular type of mindset?

Margot Cairnes 

Before I open my eyes every morning, I pray. I meditate. I visualize. And I only pray for God’s Will I don’t say, you know, give me another million dollars.

Kelly Ryan Bailey

Right

Margot Cairnes

Who wouldn’t want another million dollars. I don’t relly need another million dollars. But you know, like, what’s your will for me, God? Please help me to do your will, whatever it is. And God just be a bit fairer than you normally are. I meditate every morning. And then I get up and I do my best to be of service. That’s pretty much it. You know, it’s something I help as many people as I can in a day.

Kelly Ryan Bailey

Yeah.

Margot Cairnes

I do as much as I can be of service in a day. And what I’m about to do, which I’m terribly excited about is, as you’ve mentioned I’ve written quite a few books, and a gorgeous young man called Jason read one of my books some years ago, and then set up an IT company based on the philosophy in my book.

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

Mm hmm.

Margot Cairnes 

And he came to see me recently and said, you know, would you get on my board? And I said . I’ve been asked a lot. To be honest, I get too bored sitting on the board. So, I said, but I have to fill up this sort of online program of my philosophy and what I’ve done and how I’ve turned companies around, but I don’t really have the IT skills and it’s just been sitting there. And so what happened was, I developed it and my gorgeous partner died. And I just couldn’t be bothered, really. And then I remarried and I was having too much fun to be bothered. So it just sort of sat there. And he said, Well look, what we’d like to do is turn it into an international course and we’re going to gamify it. I didn’t even know what that meant, so I got on Wikipedia. Using the techniques of gaming to make it interactive.

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

Yup.

Margot Cairnes

So that all is starting next week.

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

Wow.

Margot Cairnes 

So, next week, all his bright young people are all coming to farm and we’re having a workshop to work out how to take it off my computer and make it available to the world. So how about that?

Kelly Ryan Bailey

Wow. That is so exciting. Now wait, which book was this based off of?

Margot Cairnes 

Approaching the Corporate Heart.

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

Okay, got it. Okay, so he based his whole company off of this. And then you had created this sort of like, from that book, you created this?

Margot Cairnes 

I wrote that book a long time ago. But it’s the basic philosophy behind what I do. And then I had all these tools, which are the tools that I use, and I put the tools on an online program, but have never done anything with it. You know, there’s this problem when you’re really comfortable and happy in life, you kind of lose, what I call, the fire in the belly.

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

Well, it seems like that fire was going strong for so long, that it needed to break.

Margot Cairnes 

And then along came Jason and said no, we’re gonna pick it up and make it available with skills that I, as I said, I didn’t even know what gamifying was.

Kelly Ryan Bailey

This is so exciting. Now, how will we be able to, like keep tabs on this work?

Margot Cairnes 

Well, I think it’s really you and I talking and when it’s ready, we’ll find a way of making it available. And now I’m all for partnerships. So you know, the more people we can get in partnership with let’s do it.

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

I wanted to push this out. Yeah.

Margot Cairnes 

Well, you know, I just think miracles happen using this way of working. There’s no logical way I can describe what I’ve seen. So I call them miracles. And not only did that smelter become the world benchmark, they built around they’re smelter, they built a wetland which was called Smelter in the Park and they won three world heritage awards. They went out and they built houses and lived in the houses for street kids, and taught them how to get a jobs. They just changed an entire town. They had a thing called the Portland Speakers Series, and they had people like David Suzuki coming into town and, and speaking to the local people. They put the whole town through a personal development program, they taught the local kids how to play jazz. Yeah, it was just unbelievable what happened. And I went into a place where literally people were dying. We’re literally people were in fear, where they will literally hated. And I remember years later walking through the plant with the Managing Director who was a great big blokey Aussie sort of fella. And he said, Margot, there’s love in this plant. And there was love in it.

Kelly Ryan Bailey

Yeah.

Margot Cairnes 

There was. And I thought, the whole world could be like this. We all have companies that are filled with love, improve the environment that improve the community that help people flourish. I was asked to go in because Portland couldn’t get anyone to stay. Two years later, the Managing Director of our car rang up and said, we can’t get anyone to leave Portland. We don’t know what you’re done, but nobody will leave and we want to spread the technology that they’ve got.

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

Wow.

Margot Cairnes

It’s a miracle.

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

But I love what you said. Exactly. The whole world can be like that. And that’s what I think I know, some people might think when we say things like this, that we’re being sort of like fluffy and out there. But in all honesty, I truly believe that to.That this type of work you know, creating these mindsets, helping people navigate in this enlightened way. Maybe I’ll use that loosely, but enlightened way, can change the world.

Margot Cairnes 

And Kelly there’s nothing fluffy about making another billion dollars. There’s nothing fluffy about changing the industry globally. There’s nothing fluffy about doing mergers, taking over companies twice the size of the company you are. That’s what I’ve done with this technology.

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

Yeah.

Margot Cairnes 

happy consequences are, people feel happy. They grow as human beings. Their marriages improve. Their health improves. They go out and they work in the community. They just have to open their mind to sustainability. Right? Those are happy consequences.

Kelly Ryan Bailey

Yeah.

Margot Cairnes 

If we go in for the happy consequence, and we don’t get the other stuff, you can say business is about making money. So if you don’t make money, you don’t get to play the game. It’s like monopoly. If you don’t end up with the money in the houses, you lose.

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

Right.

Margot Cairnes 

But, it’s not about the money in the houses. It’s about the community, it’s about making the world a better place.

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

Right.

Margot Cairnes 

And if you do that around what you do as a business, you make more money. And, and, and, and, and

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

And how many people have you met that have all of those, you know, the the material side of it right that have, you know, the money the stuff, right, that are still empty shells of a person

Margot Cairnes 

I’ve met a lot of people.

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

Right. But it’s it’s like, I mean, it’s not

Margot Cairnes 

to be one of my clients.

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

Yeah.

Margot Cairnes 

But one of my clients went back and they met every year for about 20 years. And he said, you know, Margot, out of those 50 people, I’m the only one that’s left. And these were people who do that advanced leadership at , they’re at the top of the tree. And he said, no they all just feel like life’s past them by. While they’re in this peak of business, they’re preoccupied, but once the buzz goes, who or what are they? 

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

Yup.

Margot Cairnes 

But this fellow had with me turned around so many companies and enriched the lives of so many people. Right? And he grown himself. I’m not talking about now I have a deep spiritual belief. This man never did and I don’t think he ever will. But he’s just a really solid, decent human being that makes the world a better place.

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

Yeah.

Margot Cairnes 

And from that place of solidness and decency, he has that inner, what is it, peace?

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

Yes. Because if you if you keep chasing the stuff, as opposed to being fulfilled by helping the people every day, you just drain everything from you.

Margot Cairnes 

Right? I mean, I did both, I have to say. I guess I overdid it. So one of the reasons I bought my farm. I’d say 10 years ago, I moved to Byron Bay to raise children and chickens. And the reason I did that is I just was burnt out.

Kelly Ryan Bailey

Yeah.

Margot Cairnes 

I had this very deep spiritual belief. I’m a yoga teacher and hypnotist. Now I have a very deep, rich inner life. But I also had an unbelievably hectic outside life. You know, I had the biggest change company in this country. And I had all these people flying around the world, and I just was exhausted and I got sick. And I thought I don’t want to do this anymore. I don’t want to be Superwoman anymore. I can’t.

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

Yeah.

Margot Cairnes 

So you know, I became a very unsuperwoman. And all I can say…

Kelly Ryan Bailey

It’s not really ever though. It’s still super.

Margot Cairnes 

One of my PA’s left and set up a company called Busy & Important. You know, I’m not busy and important anymore. I’m busy but I’m just a nana that raises chickens and grandchildren, you know. And I might still mentor people around the world, I may still get to talk to people, some of the most important people in the world. But it’s like, oh, well, you know, that’s what I’m doing today. It’s not that not the middle of my existence. I mean, I was comfortable working with a drunk or an addict, as I am with a Managing Director or a Prime Minister, and they’re just as important. One is no more important than the other. So coming from that place, I get to live in this amazing place of peace and joy and serenity. Which is better than being exhausted, which is what I used to be.

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

Yeah. I mean, I cannot blame you at all. And I you know, the funny thing was, is that as we come close to the end of our time, Margot, I was gonna say to you, are there any last like parting words, but it’s hard to top what you just described because you’ve just described inner peace.

Margot Cairnes 

So I look at it My window and all I see are rolling hills, trees, and cows down to the ocean. Thats what I see. And it’s I’d say it’s 200 to 80 degree view from my. And I just think I live in God’s world.

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

Yep. Sounds like it.

Margot Cairnes 

After the prayer in the meditation I don’t have to do much, I just sort of look out the window.

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

But I’m sure you still do a lot?

Margot Cairnes 

I do.

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

I’m sure you do. It sounds like you’re still helping amazing people. And also this new course, like, there’s just still so many things. So, you know, I think, hopefully, you will never be as busy and to yourself to the point of burnout by any means. We don’t want you to go there. But it sounds like things are maybe heating back up.

Margot Cairnes 

The problem is, how can I put it, when you love what you’re doing, you don’t feel like you’re doing work.

Kelly Ryan Bailey

Right.

Margot Cairnes

 My husband looks at me, and he says you’re so busy.

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

You know what, my husband says the same thing.

Margot Cairnes 

And you’re just doing what you love.

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

Yep, it’s sometimes I have to tell myself though, you need to walk out of the room. That is my office, because, you know, there are other people here. So, you know, that is what pulls me out. But, I mean, there are plenty of days where I completely lose track of time. You know, because it’s because it’s fun.

Margot Cairnes 

And for me, it’s being out with people, you know, like, on the weekend, I addressed the community. And that was just so heartwarming, you know, people living in communities working together to make the community better.

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

Yeah.

Margot Cairnes

Today I’m talking to you. And I don’t know how many people around the world are watching. Last week I was talking to the wealthiest families in the country. You just do what you do.

Kelly Ryan Bailey 

Yep. This has been so fabulous. I so appreciate you joining me. I really hope that you and I can still continue to have conversations. I’m really excited for what’s coming up. But anyone else who’s out there listening, if they want to follow Margo, she is available on LinkedIn. And her website, which I’m going to try to get this last name pronunciation Margot Cairnes. Margotcairnes.com. That’s where you can find her. And definitely keep in touch. And when I share this, I’ll put in all the books because especially that one book that you mentioned, but all of them super fabulous. So keep in touch with Margot everybody. And thank you all thank you all for listening into Let’s Talk About Skills Baby. You can find this, well I say podcast, Bbut I guess the podcast part is on iTunes and Spotify. But it’s also available in video on YouTube. And you can find me at Kelly Ryan Bailey on all the various social channels. Really appreciate if you would offer some feedback rating and review anything just to know what other types of things you want to hear would be great. But thank you Margo, so much for joining us today. Again, really appreciate the time, love everything that you’re doing. And I hope you all have a wonderful day. Bye.

Margot Cairnes 

Thank you, everyone. Thanks Kelly.