Making Learning Fun with Human-Centered Design Leadership and Curriculum building

Episode Transcript

Kelly Ryan Bailey  00:00

Hi, everyone. Welcome to Let’s Talk About Skills, Baby. I am your host, Kelly Ryan Bailey. Each week I chat with inspiring visionaries about the skills that make them successful, how they developed those skills, and their innovative approaches to improving skills based hiring and learning around the world. Come learn what skills help you live your best life. This week, we’re joined by Erin and Erin right before I hit record, I realized I should have asked you how to pronounce your last name. So I totally apologize. Can you please I just don’t want to butcher it.

Erin Huizenga  00:40

Sure. It’s Huizenga.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  00:42

Huizenga. Perfect. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining us today. So let me do a little brief introduction of Erin. Aaron is the Co-Owner and Studio Director of Desklight. She designs to help people learn. Believing solutions are best found in true collaboration with the people who will benefit from them. She helps organizational leaders Connect learner centered research insights, with design thinking to build new programs and tools. She has partnered with national organizations to design learning programs for public health and diversity initiatives. Designed tools for higher education institutions and public schools. And designed a program to empower high school students to build a portfolio of project based work. Before founding Desklight, Erin worked with firms like IDEO and Gensler on projects with Northwestern Medicine, Motorola, PNC Bank, OfficeMax, Wilson and Best Buy. She’s been a nationally featured speaker at Creative Mornings and the HOW Conference and created curriculum and taught courses at the IIT Institute of Design and Northwestern University. Wow, this is so exciting. Thank you. And this is just fabulous work that you’ve been involved in. I’m so excited to learn more about this work at Desklight.

Erin Huizenga  02:05

Yes, thanks for having me. I’m excited to share and get into the conversation a little bit.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  02:11

Definitely. Well, before we jump into Desklight anyway, I’d love to just learn a little bit more about how you got into this. Tell us a little bit about your journey.

Erin Huizenga  02:20

Sure. Earlier in my career, I was a graphic designer. And then I turned into more of a design strategist, design researcher from working at places like IDEO and Gravitytank, innovation firms. But, backing up a little further even from that I grew up as a dancer and a crafty person. My mom is a painter and interior designer, and just kind of grew up around that spirit of being a creative person. Then in undergrad, I studied advertising and art history, both together. And that paved the way for this whole career path that I’ve had around design and making things, that’s been really the picture of my entire career these last 18 years or so.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  03:11

Wow. And it’s so interesting. When I hear these stories, I often think through like what skills you may have learned throughout that process, which it really sounds like this creativity piece has been a huge influence in your life starting at such a young age.

Erin Huizenga  03:25

Mm hmm. Absolutely. I talk sometimes with people I mentor about how any kind of creative freedom and thoughtfulness that you have in your youth can really springboard you into different kinds of innovative career pathways. Especially in in the creative field. So, I think a lot about how design and the discipline that is required in the field of design, was inspired by some of the discipline that I got from being a young dancer and having to think about those kinds of things that are simila. Discipline and rigor and things like that.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  04:04

It sounds like your mom was obviously really creative as well. But were there other ways that she really helped…What I’m thinking of is even my own childhood, I had parents that were more involved in sports. So their push was always more towards the outlet of sports, instead of maybe necessarily sort of like music or dance or more creative aspects. And I just wonder from your being a child in a household that seems like they’re pushing more creative lifestyle, how your mom really got you into those things? Was this something that you just loved on your own? Or was she really helping you gain that awareness?

Erin Huizenga  04:48

Maybe both. Sort of the nature/nurture aspect of everything, right? You know, I think I might have ended up being a creative person regardless, just based on my personality and who I grew up to be individually. But then the nature piece, my grandmother, my mom’s mom, was a professional painter and sold her oil paintings and watercolors. So, when we’d go visit them, I would see her work and be really inspired by the fact that she was able to make her way as a woman, and a painter and sell her work. And then I think my mom was inspired by her mom, and how that sort of manifested in our house growing up. We would get craft materials and make things, sort of just to do it. And the skills associated with that, around finishing it well, and having a vision for what it should be. You know, thinking outside of the box, and not being so much of an implementer, but more of a creator. All of those things, I think were were interesting. And then in parallel to that quickly, my father was a serial entrepreneur, he’s very much an analyst. He got his master’s degree in statistics, he’s very different than my mother. And so I think I have some of that in me too, around leadership and the fact that I have gone the entrepreneurship pathway and things like that. So it is fun to reflect on how much your parents or family have influence on where you end up going.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  06:21

It’s so true. Now, at what point was it that you took this creative mindset and decided, I’d like to apply this to learning?

Erin Huizenga  06:31

That took a while honestly, in terms of understanding and developing those stories that had something to do with learning and design. So, for a number of things that were sort of happening in parallel, probably about 10 years ago. Where I was working as a consultant, I was teaching at Northwestern University, I had also started a nonprofit organization. So I was getting my feet wet as an entrepreneur at that time. I was doing a lot, and I was thinking this might not be sustainable with starting a family and doing this for the next decade. But, I had loved it for a while just kind of experimenting and looking at all these different things. And so I came to a point where I thought, well, how can I combine my love for all three of these things? Being a business owner, or at that time organizational Executive Director. How can I combine that with being an instructor, faculty member, teacher, mentor, and my love for that and making my courses really exciting and fun and engaging in a different kind of way than maybe what some of my students had been used to? And then this pathway of always being on the consulting side. So like I said, starting as a young graphic designer, and then turning into a bit more of a leader and strategist over time, how could all three of those things combine? So, it was a slow, steady pace of looking at what was happening in consulting, in business, combined with this love for education and innovation and learning. So, I started telling that story around any educational endeavor, or experiment or class or course that I’ve taught and delivered and facilitated I’ve made. So, starting to really capitalize on and embrace that narrative alongside consulting. And that’s really how we arrived at this idea of consulting for learning endeavors. And, you know, the vision around making them engaging, and equitable and fun. So it was a slow and steady pathway. As so many of these kinds of stories are to get there and figure it out as you go, and kind of experiment and see what works and what doesn’t.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  09:05

When you look back, it all sort of makes sense. But when you’re going through it, you’re right, you don’t necessarily know exactly, I’m headed in this direction, or I’m making this choice, or all of these things. Did you always want to be a teacher? Was that something that you started or that you just fell into that?

Erin Huizenga  09:24

When I was growing up, I taught the little three year olds dance classes because I was, you know, dancing myself. I started doing that back in high school. And then in college, I also taught dance. Then I left that whole thing, around dance and taking dance classes all the time, and fell in love with being a designer. And when I was finished with graduate school, and went to Chicago and had my first job, and was super busy, as many young designers are, I wasn’t teaching. But then I had this aha moment, I really miss teachng, I miss investing in people in this way. So, I started teaching at Chicago Portfolio School. That was a pivot where I was like, okay, I can apply some of these things that I really enjoyed doing with dance to this world of design. And at the time, when I was teaching at Chicago Portfolio School, I was pretty much the same age as the people in my class, which was hilarious. You know, I was probably only two or three years older than some of them. I was nervous and didn’t really have my sea legs under me in terms of teaching design. But I kept teaching there because I loved it, and I’ve always felt like if you know something, and you feel like you know it well enough to give it to someone else, you should be teaching it. I think that applies to having a family and coaching or mentoring people, as much as it applies to the formality of being a teacher. So, you know, I sort of grew up into it. Then, after Chicago Portfolio School, I started teaching at Columbia, and then ultimately Northwestern and ID. I see it less of a title around teaching or being a full time teacher, which I don’t think I would ever want to do for a number of reasons. But I love investing in people, and connecting people, and building communities and things like that. So I think teaching is a pathway into that conversation.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  11:31

That’s so true. I’m sort of imagining too, you must have over the years, sort of this thread that you get to see, when students, that spark hits of interest in some area for them. I’m sure that you’ve heard this many times, because it sounds like you really put so much lovely effort into how you design this work for your students. And you’re really engaging and passionate about it, that they must have these moments where they’re like, wow, this person really changed the way I’m seeing my life. I wonder if there’s some sort of threads you’ve heard throughout the time of what students might say back to you on how they feel about being involved, or like having you as that moment in their life and the passion that you bring?

Erin Huizenga  12:19

Yeah, it’s so neat to hear those stories. A few of my students have put things like that on LinkedIn. I love hearing those and whatever flavor they come back, you know, and sometimes you don’t know, for a decade. I’ve had some students that I had at Columbia, seriously 10 years ago, email me randomly and say, hey, I just thought of you because I applied this thing we talked about 10 years ago in this client meeting I just had. And I’m like, that is amazing, you know like I never thoght that would happen. So that’s fun. And I love the moments in class too, where people have those aha moments for the first time. Something sort of clicks, and there’s this lightbulb moment. Those are so satisfying. I live for those moments, when people are like, oh, I finally see it, I get it. And that’s the why right there.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  13:15

Totally. And not to like, divulge your secret sauce for what you do with Desklight. But I’m curious if there’s something that you find to be the most important aspect to bring in to an environment like that, to sort of make those moments happen for students? Because you’ve been doing this for a while now. So without going too in depth, what is the thing? You know?

Erin Huizenga  13:37

Yeah. Yeah. I think there’s two big, big tenants to the work. I think the first one is truly being a human centered design leader. Running any kind of project or new program, or service, or experience online through that grid. Knowing who you’re serving, knowing who the learner is, and designing for them. Because if it’s being designed in a vacuum, and you’re throwing that instructional design, or curriculum or program over the fence, so to speak, then it’s never going to be that enjoyable. They’re never going to really, really feel what you’re trying to do, or you’re trying to teach them. I think that’s the first big bucket is just knowing who it is, and then working with them to design it. And then the other thing that I think often goes overlooked, and it’s such a simple idea, is just this idea of fun. Learning should be fun. It shouldn’t feel like a task. It shouldn’t feel like something you have to do in order to keep your job, or to stay in school. It should be fun. And so how do you design for fun? You think about projects, you think about how you can connect with the people in your cohort, whether that’s offline or online. You think about how does this apply to life for these people in this learning environment?How can you make it really sticky? Because it actually is relevant to them at the moment that they’re learning it, you know? And that’s all fun if it’s done, right?

Kelly Ryan Bailey  15:07

Yeah, completely. Are there someone you think about that from a life perspective? You know, this is something that they can apply to their life. I’ll bring it back to skills for a minute. Especially in the courses that you teach, what do you think are the most transferable assets that you’re bringing to these students? I call them skills. Some people might not call them skills. But really they’re these life skills that could be transferable into multiple different areas.

Erin Huizenga  15:35

Yeah, gosh, I have so many thoughts on that. I think with the classes that I’ve taught over the years, so much of it is about design in all of its flavors, and forms and fashions and all of that. To decode that more, I think the actual skills are things like, how do you talk to strangers? How do you learn from them? How do you interview them well, in a way that they’re going to give you real, meaningful feedback that you can learn from? What makes a good design? It’s something that, you know, lands well with the hearts and minds of the people that you’re making something for. So that applies to business just as much as it applies to being a tried and true designer. However, people think about that, whether it’s an architect or an industrial designer, graphic designer. It matters in business too. You really have to listen well, and you have to volumize your content and your voice, and your general stature about how you’re delivering something and a meeting. That’s all design, in my opinion. So many of these classes that I’ve taught are for traditional designers, and for future business leaders to teach them about some of these skills that are really innately baked in to the process of, “Human Centered Design.”

Kelly Ryan Bailey  17:04

Right, exactly. And I love that aspect. I mean, I know we’re, we’ve probably been talking more about Desklight, without saying it. But, I am curious how you took this next step from what you were seeing in this teaching environment, and knowing the reasoning behind why you wanted to create a business, but sort of now what you maybe those aspects that you’ve learned and how you’re trying to transform this at scale?

Erin Huizenga  17:34

Yeah. I think from teaching for quite some time, and from my partner teaching different kinds of audiences over time. And from seeing the world of instructional design, and how that’s typically gone the last, I’d say, 50 years or so. There’s definitely a need. So, for us, thinking about the mission and vision of Desklight, it’s really to work with learners across the the lifelong learning spectrum. We don’t just work in K-12, we don’t just work in higher ed, we don’t just work in learning and development and training. We like to work across the entirety of lifelong learning and kind of close down those silos a little bit. Because we can cross pollinate then, as an office that’s working with all of these diversity of kinds of problems and clients to solve for them. Something that we’re thinking about as an insight for early learning could easily be a very cool, thoughtful thing that we can bring to a learning and development project. Because, there’s a lot of truth and similarity about how people learn as humans over the course of time as they age. Some of it’s quite universal, and that’s really neat to kind of talk about and think about with people across all of those kinds of conversations and relationships. So that’s something that has come from the work and knowing we really want to continue to align with folks in all of these different categories. As long as it’s a learning endeavor, and something that is big and seems like there’s a ripe chance for innovation there, then cool, let’s do it. Let’s talk a little bit more about it.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  19:32

So what is one thing that you’ve taken from one different area of the lifelong learning aspect and brought to another?

Erin Huizenga  19:41

Yeah. We were working with Techstars in Boulder, Colorado a couple of years ago. Qickly, the scope on that project was to build a learning hub. A toolkit for the entrepreneurs in their accelerator programs across the globe. So we were able to think about, by talking with these founders in the programs, how should we deliver this engaging, fun curricular content? And the business objective was so that it’s scalable and efficient. And they would know that the Techstars curriculum is being offered at the same degree of rigor, and the same kinds of curriculum was being offered to all of these folks in their accelerator programs. So all of that said, the way we designed the topics was for people to go in where they felt comfortable, and where they felt like they needed that learning. So, if you’re working on financial modeling, one day you can access that and not feel like you have to sort of graduate from the three topics before that, in order to get into that financial modeling content. So, we didn’t design the curriculum to be linear. We wanted to break down that notion that you had to get badge,  or graduate from one unit to get to the next unit or topic. So, we brought that notion to a project that we were doing in K-12. And we said, high schoolers kind of want to learn this way too, you know? Nobody wants to feel like you’re being forced through this content How can we make it a little bit more open source? With the spirit of freedom, give them the choice, Montessori style right? To go in and, sort of, pick and choose what skill or topic they wanted to embrace on that particular day. And as long as they get through at all at a certain amount of time, then cool, no problem. You know, we learned it.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  21:47

What was the reaction? I’m gonna guess that it was successful. Because it sounds like that’s, of course, what they wanted. Did you get feedback from students that was just like, wow?

Erin Huizenga  21:58

Yeah. You know, I think that the Montessori philosophy, this is a little bit of a soapbox for me, but I think that that philosophy of open learning and choose your own adventure is very strong. And my hope is that through some of our K-12 work we can bring some of that thinking and style of learning into classrooms in public school districts too. And even independent schools that maybe haven’t thought that way in the past. So, yes, absolutely. The students loved it. The teachers loved it because, in some ways, it redesigns the teacher’s day as well, and creates some efficiencies there that, at face value, people don’t really realize necessarily is the case. With the Techstars work, just this idea of designing a curriculum that’s this way, it was written up in the Wall Street Journal. They celebrated it as part of their call to action of “give first,” which is the tagline for Techstars. It certainly was in that category of being learner centered. Following the lead of what the learners really wanted as founders of their own businesses. They don’t want to be told what to learn when. They want the freedom to get the information they need at the right time.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  23:20

Yeah. It’s it’s fascinating that you say this because, we were chatting about this prior to hitting record, what’s going on at home with my daughter right now, that has, again what is coined a learning disability, but I don’t call it that, I call it her gift. But the interesting thing being that as soon as she was given the ability to have control, which she didn’t have in the school environment. COVID and going virtual, has given her this level of independence in terms of her learning. She was sad every single day for the last, almost five years of going to school of her life. And all of a sudden, within weeks, I would say maybe like a month, she was so happy. And even to this day, which we’re still doing virtual school, just to see the difference in how she approaches this. They’re using Google Classroom for this. So, everything’s not perfect by any means. But she has control of when she does what and how she does it, and which things she wants to choose, which I think is just to see that in a child that was struggling so much is just fabulous.

Erin Huizenga  24:24

Yeah. I love that. I love that. I think that young people deserve a lot more autonomy than we give them credit for, or that we give them. I love stories like that, because they can figure it out on their own. It’s just us grown ups that often give them so many constraints. As teachers and classrooms, or in systems in general that are designed to constrain and not create a box that they can play in, or even like a framework that provides for that freedom. So absolutely. I love that. And that is an upside to everything that were challenged by with the season we’re in because of COVID.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  25:06

It’s true. And for the business, I’m assuming that this shift as well, because everywhere education is happening in different formats now, not that it wasn’t before again, but maybe a little bit more broadly, are you seeing a shift in your business as well, as the changes with COVID that have happened?

Erin Huizenga  25:25

Yeah, definitely. With higher ed, we’re working with two different schools right now. And we’re at either end of the user journey, so to speak, with them. And both, I think are related to the times that we’re in at the moment. The first goal is about designing a digital experience for recruiting. Because people aren’t going to be spending the time or resource to come and see what graduate school they would want to go to in person. So that’s the scope of one project. The second one on the other side is building a better, more effective value proposition for alumni of this business school. So, not only do they get this great experience and this great learning from being in the graduate school itself, but the school is also now thinking about, because I think they have to, you know, continue to think what’s our value proposition above and beyond other business schools? Well, we could offer them more support and more learning after they graduate as well. So that’s an example. And I think that perhaps the school has definitely been thinking about that for the last few years. But now is a catalyst moment to say, oh, we have to do this now. Those are just a couple of examples that I think have have been extraordinary and really, really great for us to work on and partner on. In the spirit of we want to equip higher ed schools to be able to continue what they’ve been doing in this new economy that we’re in.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  27:03

Yeah. And do you have any, because of the way your mind works, then this like creative sort of…I tend to bracket creative and innovative together. Because, typically when you start to think of new things, that’s kind of how innovation works, in terms of skills. Because your mind works this way, I wonder if you have, some sort of interesting things that you’ve been thinking about that, man, if you could just get that out to more schools?

Erin Huizenga  27:33

Hmm, gosh. So many things. Wow. Yeah, definitely. There’s, I think, with K-12 schools more need for problem based learning and project based learning. I mean, certainly, in the spirit of all things that I’m sure you’re thinking about all the time too. The skills that come from project based learning, and the confidence, and the self actualization that can come. and the relevancy of the learning and how students will ultimately remember those things better and more effectively than they would have if they learned it from a textbook or even from their teacher lecturing at them. So, those are the two things that certainly rise to the top in my mind for for K-12. I think for higher ed, there’s just so much changing and happening. I mean, we could talk about that for three hours, I’m sure. But, just new ways, hybrid models, skill based models, specialty models. Whether they’re for profit or nonprofit, which is a very provocative conversation right now. But a needed one to be having. Just the redesign, the innovation that can happen in terms of what makes the most sense for each individual, and what do they want? Do they want the college experience, or do they want the skills? Do they they know themselves well enough in what they want to do when they leave high school, to fast forward into some, you know, direction that they are that confident in? We need to have different kinds of pathways for different kinds of learners earlier on. Also this idea that there’s a lot of neat new higher ed partnership models that are happening around financial aid. And not requiring certain core courses to be taken again, if a high schooler already has some of those credits, or that knowledge even, or AP things like that. Then on learning and development front, I think what we’re seeing with those clients is that traditionally, historically, learning has been for the sake of some kind of objective that’s part of their job description, the employees job description. I think that’s really changing, where businesses, employers, big organizations are starting to think more about how can we embrace and enrich this individual as a human, and what they want to do with their lives and with their work? And how can we think about this more as employee benefit and less of a thing that’s about us as a business or organization? So there’s really neat, beautiful, innovative conversations that are happening on that front.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  30:30

I really love that point especiall. Because again, for us, we’ve tended to maybe lean a little bit more on the education side, which I think is extremely important. But then we throw people off into this world that still has some of the boxes are surrounding life that we are trying to change in education. So I find that to be a really important piece to this, especially now in this moment where all of us are sort of just like living out loud, you know? At any moment, kids can come running in the room, dogs, whatever. But life and work has turned into something that’s very, very different. And it’s sort of the same way we approach this with our kids. Just like you said, with this creative mindset that started in your home, as a child, with your mother and a grandmother that had this very creative aspect. If we, all of a sudden, say at one point in your life, nope, just turn that off. We don’t want that anymore. You’re going to go and do what’s over here in this box. That’s so boring. Who wants to live that way?

Erin Huizenga  31:36

Yeah. Yeah. I love that notion. Just the freedom that we try to design for our kids. Like the idealism around that, where it’s like, you can do anything you want to do, you can be who you want to be, you have to work for it. But you have that ability, and encouraging and believing ability throughout our whole learning lifecycle as young people as well as grown ups. However, we think about what those particular buckets are, right, in terms of demographics. But positioning ourselves and believing in people to know that they can change, they can grow always and not in like the particular education sector or portal that we happen to think about traditionally, like you’re saying. There’s going to be, and already are, to some degree, so many ways that people can continue to grow and broaden their mindset and get better, and upskill, and all of that. It’s just very exciting to me to think about what’s going to happen in the next few years

Kelly Ryan Bailey  32:39

I completely agree. I think we just need to get to that point too. I realized this will start small. But that concept going back to this whole like employer aspect of let’s look at what you might have aspirations around, as opposed to what’s going to work for us. Which I think is just a really interesting twist. Because I think if more people thought about their life like you just described, where whatever dream that you might have that most adults might say, well no, you need to pay the bills, you need to do that you can’t have these dreams. What if the world had this slight shift towards, no actually dream big, and go after that. And what level could we continue to raise us up in general, as we start that process. That to me is the most inspiring piece of this. I know this sounds a little foofy, but we do really have the ability here to take people in general, and just raise the bar of how we think about life.

Erin Huizenga  33:42

Absolutely. I think this is something that’s also been kind of neat that’s happened with COVID, right? We all know friends that have done these really strange, maybe interesting, unexpected career pivots. Or they’re doing some hobby that you’re like, really? But that’s the beautiful thing right now. There’s almost more social permission now, that people are not surprised. They’re more socially accepting of those experiments and things that people are trying, and I love that. Hopefully, this is the beginning of just being more accepting and encouraging of each other as friends and networks to go for that. Do that. Try that.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  34:24

I hope so too. That would be such a better way to live. Yeah, that’s, that’s lovely. I know you have a son. So tell me, you have all these thoughts. Is there something for your son…I feel like I already know your answer. But I’m just thinking, how would you approach education with your own child?

Erin Huizenga  34:48

Yeah. It’s interesting you asked that question. He has asked us, many times, do I have to go to college? And he’s 10. He’s 10 years old right now. I think he asked the question for the first time when he was about eight. And that is such a big question for parents. I think traditionally, what the data tells us, of course, is that people that have gone to college are going to really encourage their students, their kids to go to college or to go to the best college they can. Or force their child to go to some college that they want them to go to. I think that that entire narrative is breaking more and more every single day. And what we told Knox is, you don’t have to go to college. But, our responsibility as your parents is to help you figure out what you might want to enjoy doing. How will you enjoy the days before you, as a grownup, when you are more autonomous, and can live your own life, and we’ve equipped you with those life skills that you need to survive and flourish. We will help you, as your loving parents/mentors, to figure out what path is best for you. And he’s 10. And we’ve got, you know, depending on how you look at it, eight to 10 more years in front of us, as we start to figure out what that might look like. I’m encouraged that there are going to be 1000s more options that we could send him to then there are at this very moment. We tell him, you don’t have to abide by these traditional systems and structures that we have known to be true as your parents. And we work hard not to put those barriers up on him as a generational expectation, and hope for the best beyond that, you know? Hope that every day we’re sharing things with him and telling him about new things that we’re seeing through our work and conversations that we’re having that might inspire him.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  37:03

I love that, and I had a feeling you might answer it that way.

Erin Huizenga  37:05

You keep nodding like, yep, I knew you were gonna say it that way.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  37:12

I mean, we have so many similarities in that respect. And it’s a similar way that I would answer with mine to. And I laugh because the funny thing was that I would say this about the next step of life after high school. But up until COVID, and this whole experience with going virtual, I hadn’t really thought that we could navigate a K-12  experience differently than what was sort of the standard. I mean, this is a lot for me to say. Because, I don’t know why I didn’t think that way. It was just a moment that I needed to have to see that it could be sustainable in another way. But again, I have three children with three totally different personalities, and likely three totally different paths. So you know, even though I say to them, it’s completely their choice, as long as they have the correct funding. I had to pay my way through school, so that’s a big thing for me. Because I think there’s like an onus on what you do, and the choices you make in your life when you’re the one paying through that. So, if you want to go to an Ivy League school, like that is fabulous. And you know, you can figure that out.

Erin Huizenga  38:33

Yeah. Yeah. I think also with that, there’s definitely a need for Ivy League schools. There’s a need for all kinds of schools, and it really is driven by the learner, like you’re saying. There’s going to be opportunities for students that are more and more self directed. And hopefully, we’re having those conversations around the sacrifice around the finances, just as much as the sacrifices around if you do go this direction, you’re choosing this path, you’re not choosing these other paths. Do you realize that? That’s a big conversation? Yeah, absolutely.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  39:10

I feel so fortunate that we can think these things, and even navigate our life in this way. I would be remiss not to say that I realize not everyone is in the same situation as that. But ideally, for everyone to be able to figure out what fits in their life wherever they’re at, that, to me is why I get so excited about these changes that are happening in education and in wor. Because I think this will broaden the abilities for more people to find success. Wherein before, there was only one way. And that I felt was extremely limiting. Even though there were a lot more than one way, most people only knew of one way.

Erin Huizenga  39:55

Yeah. I think that as we start to have more options, it’s going To be interesting to see how the business and organizational models change around quality and costs, and ultimately how that leads to more equity in certain circumstances too. So, that’s another reason why I think it’s exciting to have a bit more competition in terms of systems and strategies that are in place for people to choose and make good choices, hopefully, based on what they know.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  40:22

Exactly. Well, we’re coming close to the end of our time, Erin. So I’d like to just leave with one sort of open ended question. What are the last parting words that you’d like to leave with our audience today?

Erin Huizenga  40:35

Oh, my goodness. I mean, I appreciate the the time and we’ve gotten into so many good things together. I think, just based on our conversation, the idea that learning can be lifelong. And embracing the fact that it’s a beautiful thing, and it’s an offering. It’s really yes, a competitive advantage these days, as we have people that are more and more entrepreneurial and more exploratory with their own professional pathways, as well as personal pathways, like we’ve talked about. But embracing this idea that learning is a gift, and it it can be fun, it can be exciting, it can be so much more engaging. It would be fun to continue that conversation, just on that notion that it’s a gift and it’s something that’s free for us in some ways. To embrace those notions and learnings through books and movies and going to the library and having these kinds of conversations with each other to learn from each other. Yeah, it’s an exciting new learning frontier that we’re about to embark on.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  41:47

I completely agree. I’m a huge fan of the library, by the way. What a great resource. Well, thank you so much for those parting words. And thank you so much for joining us today. I just want to let everyone know where they can find Erin. She’s available on LinkedIn at Erin Huizenga. I’m going to go ahead and when I post this on social media, make sure that she’s tagged. Or you can follow Desklight at desklightlearning.com, and it’s also available on LinkedIn and Instagram at Desklight Learning. So I want to thank you all for listening in to Let’s Talk About Skills, Baby. We had a really great time at chatting today. If you’d like to follow me, Kelly Ryan Bailey, I’m available on all of the socials at that handle. I think I’m going to point the wrong way. Ah, so close. I would love to hear some feedback. So please leave a rating, review. Shoot me a note. We’d love to hear it. Thank you all again and hope you have a wonderful day. Thanks again, Erin for joining us.

Erin Huizenga  42:48

Thank you.