How to Listen & Help Those Who Are Most Vulnerable

Episode Transcript

SB S1 E4 – Elizabeth Leiba

Kelly: [00:00:00] Hi, everyone. Welcome to Let’s Talk About Skills, Baby. I am your host Kelly Bailey. So each week I get to chat with inspiring visionaries about these skills that make them successful, how they develop those skills and their innovative approaches to improving skills-based hiring and learning around the world.

Come learn what skills help you live your best life. This week we are joined by Elizabeth Leiba. I’m going to give a little background on Elizabeth before we jump in, but thank you so much for joining us. Elizabeth was born in London, England. Fascinating, my husband is also from there and raised in sunny, South Florida.

Okay. I’m jealous. She is a published writer and has had several articles published in the Sun Centennial newspaper in Fort Lauderdale. She has also been published in the Seminole Tribune, the official newspaper for the Seminole tribe of Florida, [00:01:00] where she served as the editor for several years. Elizabeth holds a Bachelor of Science from the University of Florida in Gainesville, Florida, where she majored in journalism with a minor in education.

She also holds a Master of Business Administration with a focus in Global Management from the University of Phoenix and pursued Interdisciplinary Studies at Western New Mexico University. Over the past decade, Elizabeth has worked as an English professor at both face-to-face and online for various public and private colleges and universities.

And most recently she has worked as an instructional designer for City College, where she develops and deploys online classes for almost a thousand students across seven campuses in Florida. Wow. Elizabeths newest adventure and where we met, has been serving as a cohost on the successful higher education podcast, The EdUp Experience, [00:02:00] which I highly highly recommend.

Again, thank you so much for joining us. I am just so thrilled. Like that’s just such an amazing list of accomplishments. So excited to have you here and where are you now in Florida? Where are you located now?

Elizabeth: Currently I am in West Palm beach. It’s not, it is actually kind of sunny, a little bit overcast, but I mean, sunny West Palm beach, not too far from the beaches of West Palm.

Kelly: Oh, nice. My aunt and uncle lived there, so I’ve been there plenty of times. That’s so funny. Small world.

Elizabeth: It is definitely.

Kelly: So Elizabeth, I just wanted to talk a little bit, really quickly about how, I know we met when you guys invited me to be on your podcast which was wonderful.

And as we were chatting on that podcast, I know you, and I said, “Man, we could really talk forever” we have a lot in common. And one of the things that we started messaging back and [00:03:00] forth about is really the reason why I invited you to join on the podcast today so that we can continue this discussion.

For all of our listeners or viewers, however you’re enjoying this episode today, I asked Elizabeth to join today to talk a little bit more about how the COVID pandemic and George Floyd’s murder has shined a light on issues that have been impacting so many people’s lives in our world for many, many years.

Like this is not new, and we knew that it was just these extreme moments in time that have shown us “Wow. We should be paying attention.” And so many people now are listening and I really wanted to, and I asked you, can we continue this conversation around this because of people’s ears and eyes are open right now.

In particular, we were really talking about how the needs of, there are so many extremely vulnerable people that, again, this is not new, but everyone is [00:04:00] really seeing what’s happening because of these two major events that have happened this year. And how can we understand and incorporate their needs when we’re really putting together all of these new initiatives, especially around hiring and learning because so many people are on unemployment right now into these solutions like, and we want to hear the voice of them.

So that’s really what we’re here to talk about today and I know that seems like a pretty heavy issue, but I really appreciate you joining me today to keep shining the light where it has been.

Elizabeth: Absolutely. Yeah. There’s a lot to unpack there, but that hasn’t changed as a start without talking about it. So that’s definitely the first step in the process for sure.

Kelly: It is so true, so true. Well, before we get into the meat of our topic today, Elizabeth, I love hearing about you and all of these amazing accomplishments, but what I would love to also maybe [00:05:00] shine a light on is your journey. Tell us a little bit more about your story. How you kind of went through, came to today. I would love to just hear a little bit more about you.

Elizabeth: Yeah, sure. I mean, my story is one that I guess has a really winding path. I didn’t start out wanting to be work in really, I have friends or other people that work in higher ed that they were like, I always want it to be a teacher.

I didn’t really have that in mind. Initially I grew up in London, I’m from United Kingdom. My parents are Jamaican. They’re immigrants who if you know anything about London, it’s a very like cosmopolitan, very modern hustle and bustle city, and a lot of the residents there, the black residents, residents of color are immigrants.

It’s really immigrants from all over the world, you have people from Pakistan, India, Africa, the Caribbean. So I grew up in a real [00:06:00] melting pot as far as the kinds of people that I was exposed to and when I was really young my parents just decided, you know, I had my grandmother living here in Florida.

My parents were like, Hey, let’s move to America. So us kids were like “Yay!”

We didn’t know, when we think about America always that Disney world was there like, sounds like a plan, I mean, what else could we want? Right. So we came here and I grew up in South Florida and again, a very diverse community, very big Latino and very big Caribbean culture. So once again, growing up in a very diverse environment and I didn’t want to necessarily work in education.

I started out wanting to be a writer, so I went to university of Florida and had a full scholarship and just pursued journalism. I had been writing, I wrote for the Sun Sentinel for several years. I [00:07:00] later did a little, dabbled a little bit in teaching K through 12, and then went onto become an editor for the Seminole tribe newspaper.

And now the very diverse community here in South Florida, I’ve worked on the reservation for about four years and that was really fascinating as well, to learn more about a culture that’s another marginalized culture that we don’t really learn a lot about, but they’ve been able to really capitalize on some of the reparations and different things in terms of taxes and their reservations where they’ve been able to actually mobilize themselves and really be very financially successful.

So I’ve had a lot of different exposure to diverse communities and started thinking in terms of education, how could I really work with students to make a difference? You know, I went to USC on a full minority scholarships. So I felt as though I wanted to do something to pay back so I started working in higher education at that point, worked in admissions and in different administrative roles for about [00:08:00] seven to 10 years and then started teaching.

And I’ve been teaching in higher education at a multitude of different colleges, both online and face-to-face for just over 10 years, maybe about 12 years or so. That’s really been my journey. I just love the idea of helping someone to help themselves. I think that’s really, those of us that work in higher education we’re always thinking, how can we pay back? How can we pull somebody else up. I always look at that picture of the person reaching down the mountain and that of the person stretching their arm up.

And that’s what I think of my role in education. It’s like, okay. Someone had to pull me up. Somebody had to give me an opportunity. I went to Florida on a full scholarship by minority scholarship. What can I do to impact somebody’s life? How can I make somebody buy better? And especially students of color, because they’re more disadvantaged.

That’s always something I think about, I think about first-generation students, first-generation college students of which I was [00:09:00] one, my parents didn’t attend college. So there’s always those marginalized communities and I don’t think, I think sometimes when we talk about equity sometimes there’s a misunderstanding of well, people shouldn’t get what they don’t deserve.

And I think sometimes as a society, we have to understand that there are some communities in some marginalized communities where they don’t have access. They don’t even have knowledge of these types of, whether it’s a minority scholarship or whether it’s just even how to attend college. My mom didn’t even know what FAFSA was.

So when we think about how to pay back, it’s not really about giving something they don’t deserve, but more giving somebody an opportunity that they would never even have access to anyways.

Kelly: Exactly. It’s just communicating to them if they don’t know it. I mean, it’s surprising when you have just the knowledge that it’s available, how to go about finding it and doing it when you have that help.

Well, first of all, I mean, going back to what you said, I just absolutely love that. I love the concept. Just that vision in my mind, I got a little teary-eyed when you were like, I’m pulling somebody up. I [00:10:00] love that. I can only imagine the person that might’ve helped you in your life to me do make you feel that strongly, that “hey, I want to actually transform my whole life and do this for other people.”

I’m of course envisioning all of these students that you’re helping. And is there, are there any, I’m just thinking of like, maybe there’s a story in there of just someone who you’ve helped and transformed their life and that just really sticks out to you, that keeps you going maybe more than one.

Elizabeth: Yeah, I was going to say, I’ve talked to and communicated with and bonded with so many students, but one that sticks in my mind is when I was teaching an online class and this student literally, she was a single mom. She had young kids and we would just talk on the phone, and it was sometimes you get those students that are a little bit, they need a little bit more.

And I think that kind of transcends and it connects with what we’re talking about in terms of online learning, skills based learning, and upscaling. And there’s a lot of talk about [00:11:00] online learning and can you be connected and do students really get the same experience? What I found from my experience, and this was the experience with this particular student.

Was the bonds that I’ve developed with my online students sometimes have been even stronger than the bonds that I have connected with my face-to-face students. I’ve taught face-to-face as well, at community college and private colleges. And it’s more of the students see you, there’s a connection there that they’re not necessarily as needy in terms of what they want from you and your ability to give them extra help or tutor them or guide them.

They’re pretty self-sufficient. I find a lot of times with online students, especially right now, because we’re in the middle of a pandemic and everyone is feeling disconnected. You have an opportunity to really connect with students. And this particular student was before the pandemic. But I remember speaking with her several times and her feeling very distraught that she couldn’t get the work in on time, or her kids and babysitting issues, and a lot of responsibilities at work.

And I remember [00:12:00] just one night, it was like my 10 o’clock cause she texted me like frantic about an assignment she had to get in. I said, you know what, call me? And my kids were running around all crazy everywhere.

And I said, if you don’t mind the kids in the background, call me and let’s talk. Yeah, I just kind of talked her off the ledge. I don’t worry about it. You can do this, you can make it. And I just remember having those, several of those talks with her and feeling like this could be me, when I went to grad school, I was a single mom, my daughter’s 21.

So I remember having a lot of those same thoughts. Like, I can’t do this and this is too hard. And what was I thinking? She was a toddler when I went to grad school. Sometimes the students, in this particular case, I just will never forget the student just feeling like. I just can’t do it. And just hearing somebody say, you can do it and not having anyone in her corner to encourage her.

Sometimes it’s what the students are looking for. I think sometimes as instructors, if we can just step out of our box of, I’m just here to give you information, I’m just here to content deliver, assess you, and [00:13:00] look at the role that we play in those students’ lives. A lot of these students don’t have confidence.

They’re first-generation or they’re coming from an environment where no one they know has even graduated from college. So sometimes just encouraging words and telling the student, don’t worry, I got your back. You can do this. That’s all they need. And she went on to get a great grade and she got either an A or B.

If she got a B it must have been a B plus. And she was talking to me, she said she was gonna fail. And I’m like, you’re not gonna fail, and she didn’t. But you know, sometimes students need that extra encouragement. That’s what we’re here to provide as instructors.

Kelly: Yeah, I’m even loving that more and it obviously speaks to me, I have children, so I can totally understand how this woman must have felt. This student in this time and this place where everything, it already feels like it’s hard. Right. And then adding in something else there, but again, I think we all know, and we all remember some point in our life having a teacher, like what you just described.

It just goes that little, teeny, extra mile. And how much of a [00:14:00] difference that makes in our lives. I just love to hear that you’re doing that and that, you know, people have been obviously, hopefully very successful with you being there and pulling them up.

Elizabeth: That’s what I want to do.

Kelly: So I know when you told us a little bit about your story earlier, you mentioned that it’s kind of been like topsy turvy all over the place, which I love, because I feel like that’s real life. You know, it’s never this like ideal, like we’re going to climb this ladder or this mountain, and it’s like this way, and it’s only one way.

It’s all crazy different ways. Because we’re talking about skills today, I thought I’d bring it back to that for just a minute and ask, you know, along this crazy topsy turvy journey of yours, did you feel like there were certain skills along the way, and this doesn’t have to be like work-related skills, it could be life skills.

However you might think about this, you know, skills that really kind of defined and brought you along and things that you’re trying to then with these students, like you said, help bring them up too. Is that [00:15:00] something ever, if you really thought about it, that has shaped you and help is helping you shape other students?

Elizabeth: Yeah, I think as I spend more time working in higher education, there’s a lot of debate about soft skills versus hard skills and what students really need to know. One thing I always try to impart is something I didn’t really even know in the beginning of my college career, is how important it is to be an efficient and effective communicator.

As I teach English composition, I always look at it in the respect of, it’s not about APA style, it’s not about grammar, it’s not about all the technical, the minutia I call it, I tell my students. And I’m like, well, it’s very, English and a lot of topics are very detailed. When we think of it as if we’re a subject matter expert, we know every intricate detail of our topic.

And for students, especially as we go into this new workplace where students have to really be able to [00:16:00] pivot, and be dynamic and be able to learn new skills quickly and technology. I think the biggest thing in terms of the skill sets that I feel are important is student’s ability to articulate their ideas.

I think writing and speaking, and being able to develop an idea and support that idea and help others understand your ideas, is how, that’s really the currency in the workplace. If someone was not able to articulate what they’re talking about, make sure people, whether it’s your employees, whether it’s your clients, whether it’s your boss, you want people to understand what you’re trying to communicate, make sure that there is support and evidence for what it is that you’re trying to, whether it’s the claim that you’re making, whether it’s initiative, whether you’re trying to sell somebody something.

At some point, I even tell my students when I teach at a career college, nurses have to do that. They have to articulate to the patients, articulate to the doctors. If you’re in [00:17:00] the criminal justice field, you have to be able to articulate your, there was a big thing about for-profit schools in University of Phoenix being one of them that had a big surge in criminal justice when they started recruiting students with some of these majors and a lot of these students didn’t know how to write or didn’t know how to articulate because they felt well criminal justice is just about, you know, enforcing the law.

And I think that’s something we need to really impart to students that even though you have to be proficient in your field, typically being able to articulate your ideas, be able to get buy-in from people, and be able to just be an influence. Be a team player. All these different soft skills that a lot of times we call them soft skills, but really at the end of the day, that’s what gets you hired. That’s what gets you promoted. That’s what gets people to like you.

 If you can be someone that people feel like, “wow, this person is, you know,” it has a vision and they can impart that vision and I can buy into what they’re talking about. And that happens to your coworkers, that [00:18:00] happens with your clients, that happens with your employees if you’re a leader. If you can’t get people to buy into what it is your vision is and make sure that they understand that, and you can articulate that, then really you’re not going to be as successful as you want to be.

Even if you know everything about your field and you’re able to kind of spout the numbers or whatever that is that you’re focused on. If you can’t get other people to buy into that idea, then it’s not going to be very effective in the workplace.

Kelly: I love that, and I almost would even add to say that, not only the currency, is that the currency of work, like that is really the currency of life. Right? I mean, it is. Today, I think about every instance outside like if I have to communicate to my family or my husband. This platform that we have of social media through us with our podcasts or through any of our other social media channels.

When we want to start talking about these things, we have to be able to really, like you said, make them clear and make them understand, help people, like [00:19:00] influence them and in a way that’s a huge, important skill through so many facets of life now.

Elizabeth: Yeah. A lot of it is vulnerability as well.

Being able to be truthful, being able to be transparent. I think some of that has come out in the recent black lives matter and some of the racial tensions and unrest and people feeling frustrated. If you’re able to be empathetic, if you’re able to be transparent and truthful, sometimes as a leader, people want you to say, “you know what? I messed up. And I need to fix it.” And I think that’s been something that maybe has been lacking a little bit in maybe the past decade has always kind of been like, put up a good front and let everyone know that you’re in charge.

Like you know what you’re doing. Yeah. But like you said, with my winding path, I didn’t know what I was doing.

I was like, huh, that looks interesting. Let me try that. Or let me try this. And sometimes as a leader you have to do that. I have to say, you know what, we’re going to try this and let’s see if it works. If it doesn’t, we’ll reevaluate it and try something different. I think sometimes it’s a fear in corporate America [00:20:00] and in higher education, people might not think you know what you’re doing.

So you’ve got to just stay the path, even if the path is wrong. We see that that doesn’t work because people are like, “Hey, You know, I see what you’re doing and it’s not authentic and genuine when people see that.

Kelly: No, and I feel like these again, it’s like, not that these moments in time are, it’s just capitalizing on what’s happening.

Right. But it’s like these moments in time, you could do one of two things, right? You can run from this or you can run towards it and you can make changes and you can make adjustments and you can take risks. All of those things, none of it’s going to be perfect because we’re not perfect.

It’s just the way it is. But like at least try, at least listen. Right?

Elizabeth: Absolutely. That’s what it’s all about. Never be afraid of making mistakes. Never be afraid of saying that you messed up. Never be afraid of saying, you know what? I didn’t do things exactly the right way, but let’s come together and let’s find ways to fix it.

Let’s [00:21:00] brainstorm. There’s so many different things that we can do as leaders, as learners, as mentors,just being open and flexible, I think is really important. These are some of the things that students need to understand when we’re thinking about skill sets and things that will make them successful.

I think sometimes in higher education, we tend to focus on theory. We tend to focus on history. We tend to focus on assessment and grades. Those are some of the things I think, as I’ve worked in the field, it’s been 20 years now, I feel as though I’m really coming away from that, I’m not as focused on the idea of assessing and grading and meeting a certain guideline or a certain barometer.

I’m more thinking about the experience and that’s what life is, like you said that’s what life is about. We don’t necessarily have to go a particular path. It can be a little bit winding, and still as long as we’re learning and we’re growing as we go. And I think that’s what I tell my students in my class.

Yeah, this is not about an A or a B. You’re going to get a good grade as long as you try. And I usually tell them [00:22:00] that off the bat, it’s like, there’s no reason for, you to fail this class cause that’s not my goal, it is not for you to fail. My goal is for you to be to enhance your experience because you’re going to get something out of it that you can apply to your personal and your professional life.

And if anything in my power, I want you to get an A, but an A is really like not real, it’s just a letter, right? It doesn’t really do anything. Doesn’t really represent anything. I think coming from the UK that’s another thing that’s really informed my perspective because I never saw grades until I came to America.

I came to America when I was 12 and I had never seen a grade because they don’t give letter grades there. They basically give you like a report at the end of the year saying, this is what you did well, and these are some things that you could improve in. I think sometimes here in the United States, We tend to forget that most of the developed and westernized world doesn’t do things the way that we do things.

So I think that being creative and thinking outside the box, when it comes to online learning, whether it comes to re-skilling, up-skilling finding ways to help students be [00:23:00] successful in the workplace. We don’t necessarily have to be inside this one guideline of this is how we do things and it’s always been done that way.

And I think with higher ed, COVID has made us see that and wake up to that, that things are not necessarily just black and white. There’s so many different ways to deliver a quality education to help students get to their goal. Most students right now are thinking in terms of return on investment.

If I’m going to get up to $20,000 worth of debt, which is another problem the high tuition rates. But if I’m going to be in debt, I want to make sure that I’m getting something that is going to help me to be successful in the future. So that’s really the end goal. Not an A. The end goal is to help that student get skills that for me, as a writer, a writing teacher composition, can I teach you how to write emails and do a proposal for your boss so that you won’t look silly?

That’s really the end of the day, not about APA and punctuation cause we spell check for that. Like let’s not worry about that as much, as focus on skills that will help you be [00:24:00] successful in the future. That’s really what I think we’re starting to see with COVID, that we need to focus more not on our F and a subject matter expert high horse, and make sure that students know every single detail about our subject.

It’s more about the student. What’s going to be best for the student and make sure the student comes out of that experience having grown and learn and being more proficient for their academic life and their personal life.

Kelly: It seems like to me, what you’re describing is really what we’re all calling precision learning.

You know, that concept that like it has to work for that person and every person is different. Our circumstances are all different. We come to the table, there may be people that can spend $20,000 or more and do all of the beautiful things that education brings for them, but there’s so many that don’t have that opportunity, but we don’t want to leave them out.

We want to bring, like you said, bring them up too. We have all these great ways. What are some of the things you’re seeing from an education perspective? Cause I know even on your [00:25:00] podcast, not only are you in it, you get to talk to people that are in it and doing amazing things all the time.

Are there areas where you’re like, “wow, they’ve really gone outside of the box here to think of ways that we can help people outside of the mainstream.” And, and maybe areas where like, I’m sure you can highlight some, but then also maybe some where you’re like, we should probably be focusing more on some of these other areas that we’re not.

Elizabeth: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we get to talk to from my own experience for sure, we also get to talk to on our podcasts, a lot of education, higher education leaders. I think one that springs to mind would be Scott Pulsifer, the president of Western Governor’s University, the competency-based education model.

And I think more and more as higher education moves forward past COVID, delves more into online learning, we’ll have to really have a reckoning and reconcile this idea that a lot of [00:26:00] students don’t necessarily want to be in an environment where everything is so prescribed. Like you said, the prescriptive, but more suited to individual student needs.

And not that, it’s normally been something where everyone gets the same prescription and we all know that it would not work in any other environment. If you go to the doctor, they don’t just run a standard prescription and just hand it to you and you walk out the door, it’s very individualized and the doctor’s talking to you and they’re looking at your background and your medical history and everything else.

I think higher education is a little bit of, a little bit slower to want to just say, there’s not a one size fits all model in terms of every subject that we deliver. And do we even need general education? If we need general education, how is that incorporated into the overall curriculum?

So I think that would be one of the models that definitely springs to mind, just in terms of thinking outside the box and wanting to focus on the student experience and making sure. We also had John Clark from GALA. They do a lot of polling of students, they do a lot [00:27:00] of polling up the general public, but one of the things he was he wrote an article, a really great article a few months ago about the faculty student relationship and how that informs students’ ability to be successful.

And I think it goes back to what we talked about before. Sometimes a student, I had it myself, needs that direct connection and some students more than others. And I think it was like 70 something percent in the dowel poll that John Clark talked about on the podcast with us, that that was the likelihood of those students being successful if they had a strong faculty mentor.

So I think it talks to, it speaks to the model that is there at WGU with Scott Pulsifer that he talks about on the podcast. We also had Dr. Greg Fowler from Southern New Hampshire University on the podcast, actually a couple of weeks ago. And similar philosophy in terms of making sure that faculty are really in tune with the students and faculty are delivering product, delivering education that is [00:28:00] more informed by the practitioners in the field.

So all of it really, I think, boils down to relevancy for the student, I think that’s really the key takeaway from what I’ve seen in the direction that higher education needs to go into and I mean, this is really what your podcast is all about when you’re talking about let’s talk about skills baby.

It’s just, what skills does a student need? We all grew up, I think most of us in more of a traditional, you have to take a certain amount of general education and there’s a certain amount of core classes that you need and there’s some intro before you take the core classes. And a lot of those classes, you’re like, what am I doing here?

Why am I here? A lot of the time, even Scott talks about on the podcast, you start to do your own competency based learning. Cause we sleep in like, you know what? I don’t need it. Just kind of set up, study the notes. And so he was like, you were doing competency based learning. You were taking a class in four weeks because that was the amount of time dedicated because you would have been like, I totally did that.

I slept in the dorm and [00:29:00] I just showed up for the test because that’s all I needed. So why are we doing that? You know, why are we putting the student through a 16 week class when maybe the students only need four weeks to take a bio class? And then they could go onto the things that they really need to focus on in order to be proficient right.

And to be successful in their major and in their actual study that they’re going to pursue it in their professional life. So that’s some of the things that I think we’re leaning toward. COVID has really made us take a long, hard look in the mirror, like, okay, we need to really think about what we’re doing when, because students are considering, and the parents are getting involved because as a parent myself, my daughter is 21.

She’s a sophomore in college. You start to think about that. Like, if you’re doing online learning to go onto campus, everything has to count. We’re in the middle of a pandemic. So a lot of these students are, are not really willing to just, I went to university of Florida and I walked the quad and I laid on the grass and took naps and [00:30:00] did the five-year plan because I didn’t know what I wanted to do with my life.

Students are not trying to do that right now. Student’s are like, I have to hurry up and just try to see if I can get through this so I could get a job out here and pay off the student loans. So it was just a whole different mentality, I think. And we need to adjust by being higher ed for a hundred years or more.

How are you delivering it? It could go into a classroom. It’s the same way that it was three, four generations ago.

Kelly: I know we’re like maybe it’s time to switch it up. Amazing.

Elizabeth: To switch it up. You know, when you think about Netflix, disruptors in the marketplace. We all grew up with blockbuster. We know we all grew up with yellow cab. Now who would ever thought your mom always told you don’t get into cars with strangers, right? And now we’re getting on our app. We’re not calling yellow cabs.

Kelly: I mean I share my ride with a trusted friend.

Elizabeth: Have you ever done that? You’re elbow to elbow. Cause like, I really want to save that five bucks. Elbow to elbow strangers, everything is changing. Everything is revolutionizing. Education needs to do the [00:31:00] same thing or we’re going to stop. People are starting to kind of call like BS, what’s going on here, you guys.

So we have to really get why so this idea that, where we’re an industry where it’s like any other business and we have to operate that way. We don’t like to be called a business, but really what it boils down to.

Kelly: No, it’s so true. And the interesting thing too, is like, obviously we’re seeing these changes that are happening again.

You and I both know they’ve been going on for a while for sure. We all need to get our bums in gear, if you will, because of this is what’s happening, but then like, as you’re realizing it, as you’re describing this relationship with these faculty members, I’m also thinking through like, what other really, what are some other, I know we call them like wrap around services.

But it seems to me like there are probably a whole slew of other things that we need to start considering as we’re bringing students through [00:32:00] whatever it is that their experience is going to be, right. There are going to be people that have more mental health issues.

There’s all sorts of things. I wonder if you hear anything, I know it’s probably more education related, but I’m curious if you hear anything about how we’re sort of addressing all of these other needs again that have been there. We’re just more aware of them right now.

Elizabeth: Yeah. I think you hit the nail on the head with the mental health aspect.

A lot of schools from what I’ve been seeing are thinking about how they can support their students in this time. It’s very stressful. There’s a lot of anxieties surrounding the COVID-19 pandemic. We have students, typically students that are at career colleges of community colleges that may be essential workers.

So they’re really tackling a lot of really serious issues in terms of their own health, the health of their families. They may be having to attend to family members that maybe are sick. So mental health is definitely, I think, at the top of the list, in terms of student support. I think [00:33:00] for a long time in this country, or just in society, mental health has had somewhat of a stigma.

So as higher education, it’s really our job to be there. And I think there’s a coming away from the idea that we’re just there to deliver education and it will keep coming back to that same concept. But I think there’s been, especially as tuition dollars have been, tuition has been going up in terms of really the cost of the student.

A lot of those student support areas actually are, there’s less investment in those, which is kind of counterintuitive, right? So we have to focus on mental health. We have to focus on academic support. We have to focus on mentoring and tutoring. I think the mentoring aspect for myself, growing up, I grew up in the center of Fort Lauderdale in a very urban area.

My high school was like 99% black. So I needed the support of strong mentors. I needed the support of the same thing that I [00:34:00] told you with that student of someone just saying you can do it. And I think we sometimes undervalue those support mechanisms. Graduation rates, especially amongst students of color where the black, Latino are usually lower than the the mainstream in terms of this, the students.

So we need to focus on how we can increase graduation rates, what we can do to support students so that not only do we enroll students, we also graduate them and understand that not all students are the same. Like you said, there’s not a one size fits all.

There’s not every student is, has the exact same set of challenges. And I think sometimes in education, we try to bring that same model that we see in society. “Everyone’s the same. I don’t see color. And, you know, everyone had the same opportunity,” but that’s simply not true. We have to wake up and really understand that we have to be more inclusive and ensure that every student has same opportunity to graduate.

And it makes me think about that me, my feed on social media, where we think about the people peeking over to see the [00:35:00] baseball game. And we’re thinking about equality and making sure that if the one child is shorter, they need a higher box. We know that rationally that if the other one child is shorter, we’re not gonna say, well, “Hey, just tip toe.”

That’s not what you tell someone, no, you give them the opportunity. You give them a leg up so that they can be on par with the taller kid that can already see. And I think sometimes we try to overlook that and say, well, they’re all tall. Clearly. They’re not because he’s little and he can’t see over the fence. So let’s give them those additional support systems. Like you talked about, the wraparound support and make sure that the students are fully able to get their education, but also graduate.

That’s really key, I think, as we move forward.

Kelly: So true. Do you have any recommendations for schools on sort of, how to hear the voices of people that may need that extra leg up? Because to me that is the most frustrating of all of this is that I think, this to me, this has always been [00:36:00] here, so I don’t see why it’s all of a sudden, like, wow we need to get, figure this out.

It’s like, but no, you need to listen to what these people are saying so that you can do the right things, put together the right resources, like really meet their needs. Because if you don’t understand, then how will you do it?

So do you have any recommendations for schools for how they might listen more?

Elizabeth: It reminds me of kind of like when you talk into your spouse or something and they’re like something wrong? And you’re kind of like, you know, you don’t really want to know the answer. And I think that’s what happens. I think in higher ed, it’s almost like we don’t really want to know the answer.

We’re kind of like, Oh, maybe something’s wrong, but do you really want to know? And I think that’s really what it goes down to. A lot of times students don’t feel heard and it’s almost like we know something’s wrong, but we don’t really want, cause we know if we actually ask them, it’s going to be like ugh and they’re really going to say what they feel.

And I think that’s the problem or that’s really the challenge is that students don’t feel heard a lot, of marginalized [00:37:00] communities don’t feel heard. We had a really cool guest on a podcast maybe a month or two or a month and a half ago. Leslie Bilarose. Well, she’s the Dean of Student Affairs with Averett college.

And she talks about just how she does like weekly zoom calls, everyone on campus has her cell phone number. This is what we can talk about in terms of transparency. And I think not everyone is ready for that. I give my students my cell phone number too, because I’m like, Oh, you know what? I can text them back. I’m on social media, on IG.

What do I care if I text them back at 10 o’clock at night? If I’m awake, sometimes they’ll text me. You awake? Yeah, I’m on Facebook. You know, so I think it’s just a matter of bringing ourselves down to the student’s level, whether it’s zoom, giving them the ability to have zoom, weekly zoom sessions, whether it’s being available on a text or social media or giving students an opportunity, whether it’s town halls, whether it’s question and answer sessions, make students understand that they are heard.

And I think that’s part of what frustrates students, even in [00:38:00] regular circumstances when we’re not having pandemic and racial unrest and so many things that makes people feel all this stress and people feel overwhelmed just giving students forums and making sure that you’re not just giving lip service. “Oh we care about what you think.”

If you care, then you would give open forums for students to be able to express themselves. When Leslie Bilarose, Dean Bilarose told us she had these weekly zoom sessions, I was like that was so revolutionary. It’s just a vent. It’s a vent session. “They get on the zoom and they can ask me anything and I will answer whatever questions, concerns, complaints, whatever they have.”

And it’s sad to say, but that’s revolutionary because a lot of times you don’t hear a school saying that they say, we care about you. We want to know what you think, but then they’re not giving the students a vehicle to be able to give those suggestions.

Kelly: Or like this safe place without judgment.

You know, that’s the other thing too, is like, it, can’t just be like, okay, we’ve opened up a town hall, but you know, now you’re [00:39:00] shamed into –

Elizabeth: And that’s I think what happens. And that’s what she talks about, she talks about it being a safe space where students were able to say anything and it wasn’t to be talked over, it wasn’t for them to say, “Oh, that’s not true.”

And I think that is sometimes what frustrates people that are in a marginalized situation, or if they’re in a group up of those that don’t feel like they’re being heard, you get an opportunity to say what you have to say, and then the person that’s holding a forum is waiting to jump on you and tell you that it’s not valid.

That I think is another frustration, like you said, we have to give them not only students a safe place to be able to express themselves, but also give them the opportunity to, for us to listen. I know with my school, with City College, we have surveys and we really read and comb through those surveys.

We give students an opportunity to have like, just being able to just say whatever they want to say about, well, I think the last question on the survey for our online program is [00:40:00] what are some things, suggestions that you have for us that we could do to make this better? And I, as an instructional designer for the online program, I looked through those and I use them and implement a lot of the suggestions that we get with students.

Like what needs to be improved. You don’t want to be defensive, because students are the ones having the experience. So, whatever suggestions they give you, take them. Students a lot of times will say, “wow, that’s really good that you implemented so, and so we’ve been saying that for a while and now you guys have rolled it out” and sometimes they will take a little while.

Cause it’s just the technical aspects of trying to deliver whatever the student wants. But listen to what they say, don’t judge, like you said, give them a safe space and then implement. Don’t just listen and say, wow, that was interesting and then go back to business as usual. Actually take what their suggestions that they’re making and find actionable ways to change.

Cause that’s really what it’s all about.

Kelly: And take their ideas. Their ideas, honestly, I think most people don’t realize like you’re sitting on a hotbed of innovation in these education [00:41:00] environments, these are people that have, they don’t, they don’t have necessarily, I mean, gosh, we don’t hope so.

They’re hopefully a little bit more young and innocent than we are in life, but that might not always be the case, but whatever it is that they’ve experienced in life, they bring that to the table. And that might be a completely new way to think about something that, you know, these folks hadn’t thought about.

So it’s like, just listen. Now I know we talked about, like I felt like we could end on this, if you don’t mind Elizabeth, because we talked early about you, this power of communication and learning this, and I thought, Is there, are there also maybe any tips that you could offer to students that want to have their voice heard?

Because this is something that you’re teaching them. Like, how do you communicate what it is? Maybe there’s some tips in this process too, where it, whether they be students or someone looking for work or whomever, like what are some great ways, very simple ways maybe, that they can also make sure that they’re communicating their needs clearly as [00:42:00] can be, right?

Elizabeth: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I, for myself, and I’m always thinking about my own personal growth and as I’ve told you, my journey has been very winding and I’ve struggled with imposter syndrome. You know, I’ve struggled with this idea of, is my voice being heard? And is what I have to say valuable? Is it relevant? Do people appreciate my contributions?

And one thing I found myself doing at the beginning of this year was really being more active on social media. There’s a phenomenon called Black Twitter, where you had a lot of people on Twitter that started the black lives matter movement and have been able to, the me too movement, the #metoo, the #oscarsowhite, all these different hashtags that have really shined a light on some of these different communities that have felt like their voice isn’t being heard.

And I really encourage students and even professionals to not look at social media as just something that’s frivolous or something that is just used to just look and see [00:43:00] what peoples posted about their cat. But think of it as an opportunity. And I think we’ve seen that with the George Floyd, with that video coming out, people in mass came onto social media and that uproar led to protest in the streets, led to the officer being erected.

So social media is something that can be mobilized and I’ve been encouraging my students to have a voice, whether it’s on Twitter, whether you’re using Instagram as a forum, blob, LinkedIn is another place where you’re able to connect with professionals, reach out to people. And I think for myself, I’ve reached out and we connected on LinkedIn. Reach out to people that you’re interested in, their ideas, reach out to people that maybe are professionals in your field, whether you’re a student or whether you yourself are professional.

I’ve connected with so many professionals on LinkedIn and written on LinkedIn and posted and done articles. So I think for students as well as professionals is important to use your voice and use [00:44:00] it in a way that helps you to connect with other people that can help you in your journey. Give, and then you can receive and have those connections that will help you to realize that your voice is valuable.

Your contribution is amazing. You do have so much potential. You can bring so much to the world. All it takes is one voice. So that’s really the advice that I would give. Don’t be afraid and just start reaching out, connecting and posting your thoughts, even if it’s a one-liner on Twitter, that might be something that can change the world.

We saw that with #blacklivesmatter, that created a whole movement, a new generation of civil rights movement. So don’t ever feel like your voice is not valuable because it really is.

Kelly: That is some fantastic advice. So before we end up today is there anything else that you would like to share with the audience that we have?

I know we’ve hit a lot of stuff today, but

Elizabeth: I think my biggest takeaway is in [00:45:00] terms of everything that has been going on with COVID-19, with the protests in with the George Floyd case and recent cases of violence and police brutality. I think my biggest takeaway would be: always be listening, always be learning, always be thinking, and don’t be afraid to ask questions.

I think one of the things that we have explored on the podcast with the education aspect of it, is sometimes us in higher education where we’re very educated in terms of book-smart, but we don’t necessarily have the context and experience in, whether it’s a marginalized community, whether it’s police brutality, whether it’s women and the struggle for women to have equality, there’s so many different areas in our society.

Whether it’s higher education and first-generation students, maybe that’s not your experience. So I think that [00:46:00] idea of always learning, listening, being open. Also don’t have cognitive dissonance, don’t think “well this is what works for me. So that works for everyone.” And, you know, it’s kind of like when you were raised a certain way and you don’t want to question the way that your parents raised you cause you feel like that’s kind of like putting them down. That’s not necessarily true. And I think in higher education, we tend to feel like, well, I was taught with Sage on the stage. So Sage on the stage is what’s the best way to do it. That’s not necessarily true.

So I think the fact is with higher education, we have to be willing to learn. And as people in general, we all have to be willing to learn and you can’t learn if you’re talking. You have to listen, you have to have your mind open to the idea that there are different and better ways sometimes of doing things.

So I think that would be like the biggest takeaway that I’ve learned over the past few months is to really open up myself to the idea that things can be different and I can be a part of that as long as I’m open to change. And that’s what I would encourage everybody to do.

Kelly: That [00:47:00] is a great last parting thought here. So everyone please remember to listen and be empathetic.

Well, Elizabeth, thank you so, so much for joining us today. This is a such a fantastic episode. For those of you guys that would like to keep in touch with Elizabeth, she is available through social media, on the podcast platform Ed Up Experience on Instagram and Twitter.

You can also make sure, for sure, that you subscribe to her podcast because it’s really fantastic. Again, the Ed Up Experience, pretty much wherever you listen to podcasts.

Thank you all for listening in today to this episode of Let’s Talk About Skills, Baby. If you enjoy this podcast, please subscribe, share, like, comment, offer ratings, reviews. I’d love to hear any of your feedback or suggestions. And if you’d like to follow me, I am available on LinkedIn and Twitter, Facebook ad [00:48:00] Kelly R. Bailey.

Well thank you all again, and I hope you have a wonderful day.