Designing work cultures that support and promote the “onlys and the lonelies.”

Episode Transcript

Kelly Ryan Bailey  00:01

Hi, everyone. Welcome to Let’s Talk About Skills Baby. I am your host Kelly Ryan Bailey. Each week I chat with inspiring visionaries about the skills that make them successful, how they develop those skills, and their innovative approaches to improving skills based hiring and learning around the world. Come learn what skills help you live your best life. This week, we’re joined by Diane Flynn. Diane, thank you so much for joining us.

Diane Flynn  00:34

Great to be here.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  00:36

I want to give a quick little introduction to Diane. Diane is the Co-Founder and CEO of Reboot Accel, designing work cultures that support and promote women. She consults with fortune 500 companies on gender diversity, and co-authored The Upside which if you’re viewing this on YouTube, you’ll be able to see that in the background, I highly recommend it. The Upside is presenting the business case for diverse workforces and best practices for tapping the potential of women. She facilitates, excuse me, workshops on professional presence and impact and coaches leaders on maximizing results and finding personal fulfillment. Diane previously served as Chief Marketing Officer of GSVlabs, a marketing executive at Electronic Arts, and an associate consultant at the Boston Consulting Group. She has spoken on diversity, ageism and the future of work at venues including SXSW, Stanford GSB, and the modern elder Academy. She earned a BA in economics from Stanford and an MBA from Harvard. That is wonderful to hear Diane. Thank you so much, again, for joining us.

Diane Flynn  01:51

Thank you for having me. Always fun.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  01:54

Well, what I would love to do is just jump into here, you know, just for everyone out there listening, Diane and I met, actually, I want to say it must have been about 2016. So about four years ago, I actually went to a Reboot Accel event in New York City that Diane was hosting. And this particular event was just to help women who had stepped out of the workforce, like brush up on some of their technical skills. And I had not really stepped out of the workforce, I was just very interested in networking with other women. But I will tell you that I learned, I still tell people and I have passed this on from that day, Diane, I learned how to backup pictures on my phone, which as a working mother is so important. Because I had actually lost pictures. I have three children, lost one year of pictures, I’m like really sad to say this of my oldest. And from now on, it’s been backed up in three separate places. And that is thanks to that event, because I had no idea how to do that.

Diane Flynn  02:57

Excellent. It’s an important skill to learn.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  03:01

It really is. But before we jump into reboot, which I will, I’m so excited to dive into, I’d love for you to share a little bit about your journey. I know you shared it with the group that day. So I know about it. But I would love for our guests to also hear as well.

Diane Flynn  03:16

Sure. So back then, which seems like an eternity ago, I started Reboot about six years ago now. And it was the direct outcome of me returning to work after a 16 year pause. So you read some things I’ve done throughout my life. But in the middle of all that I had 16 years where I raised three children. And during that time, did a lot of volunteer work served on some boards and did work over at Stanford Hospital. So I felt like I kept a little bit of a foot in the game but I didn’t get that nice fat paycheck. And, and and yet I was able to resume to the workplace at GSVlabs. And when I did that, so many women in my community who had worked with on the parent board at school or different areas said to me, I would love to do what you just did. But I don’t know how to do it. I’m not current with today’s technologies. I am not connected with a professional network. I know a lot of parents at school, but I lost track of my professional network. And I have no confidence, who would hire me? And I just kept hearing those over and over. I’m not current. I’m not connected. I’m not confident. And I thought you know, these are women I had worked with in, for years I would have hired almost any of them. They had so many talents and abilities to run auctions and host events and do strategic work and great communication skills. And and it started to bother me that here we are, this back in, you know, five years ago, at full employment, and everybody’s desperately searching for accomplished talent. And right under our nose is all this accomplished talent that wants back in. But somehow they’re not connecting, because they don’t have the confidence and skill set, and they don’t know how to find them. And so that was the genesis of Reboot. It started as a little program within the company I was working at, we had a beautiful training center. And I just went to my boss and said, you know, can we run this little program for women returning to work, and he loved the idea. Fast forward. So we did a lot of a lot of different workshops, like the one you attended. At one point, we were in seven different cities, because I kept getting calls from people. We had a lucky break, the Today Show flew out and featured our class on the Today Show, and so after that, we got calls from all over the country, saying wow, we need Reboot in Chicago and Atlanta, and Texas and New York. And so at that point, we thought, why not? You know, this sounds like a good idea. Let’s listen to our demand. And so we did do some courses in New York at that point, which I’m glad you could attend. The evolution, though, has been exactly what you said, Kelly. We started by offering these classes especially for women returning to work. But what we found was people who had never paused their career, needed these types of tools and skills, every bit as much as people who had been out of the workforce. So we kept expanding what we teach. And we added a workshop on negotiations, because we learned that women don’t negotiate. And when you look at what’s happening to women in the workplace, and I would direct you to McKinsey’s 2020 women in the workplace.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  06:54

Oh, yeah, I love that report.

Diane Flynn  06:56

I think it’s some of the best and most current, and I hate to report that one in four women in the workplace right now are seriously thinking of downshifting, or exiting.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  07:07

Oh because of what’s going on completely.

Diane Flynn  07:09

Absolutly. Between COVID and homeschooling and just work, you know, life in general, they are leaving the workforce. So companies that we work with, you know, we say you got to do some special things right now to keep these talented women. Because we might lose, according to McKinsey, we might lose a whole decade of progress we’ve made. So a lot of the the workshops and the coaching that we do now is really around professional presence, how to have difficult conversations, how to negotiate with more impact, language, the language you choose, and how to reduce some of those “like” speech patterns that hold back our impact and our confidence. We have a workshop around how to be a multiplier how to really bring out the best in people. And we go through ways we show up as inadvertent or accidental diminishers. This is based on Liz Wiseman’s body of work. We do a course, around growth mindset, which is based on Carol Dweck’s work at Stanford, on how your mindset can really impact how much you’re willing to take risks, how well you receive feedback, how you take feedback, and use it as an opportunity to grow as opposed to crumble, which many of us do. So anyway, we, we expanded all these classes and then found that there’s a huge market of companies that are interested in supporting their work place. And so we do a lot of women’s leadership programs, with companies. And then finally, when all the social unrest came about this summer, I really started to think through, what am I doing for people of color? What am I doing for this larger agenda of underrepresented groups. And in the book I wrote with my business partner, Patti White, the one you mentioned, the one that’s right behind me here. The Upside. We talked about five levers that work and five things you need to think about to support and advanced women in your workplace. And when we sat down, and we looked at each of those, whether it’s having visible role models, having formal networks, like employee resource groups, having mentorship or coaching, addressing unconscious bias, those types of things. We realized those are all the exact same things that someone of color needs. Someone who’s LGBTQ. Anyone who is underrepresented, whose voice is an “only” or a “lonely” in the room needs these things. And so it was very easy to say, let’s bring our expertise to a broader market and let’s specifically find other underrepresented groups who struggle with this. And so I brought on a partner who does this kind of training. We now do inclusive leadership training for executive teams, helping them address unconscious bias, and giving them the words to have courageous conversations in the workplace around race, gender, sexual orientation, age, whatever the biases might be. And so that’s been the evolution of our work. We still have weekly workshops for women returning to work, because we love that segment. But I’d say the bulk of our work right now is working with companies trying to recruit and advance women and other underrepresented groups. Knowing that the end result is going to be stronger business performance, when every voice shows up, when the teams are diverse, and when people feel included.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  10:58

That is so true. And you know, as you’re describing this to Diane, I will say that, it’s funny that you said, when you noticed that people who didn’t step out, were also having the same struggles. Because you basically defined the reason why I came to that workshop back, you know, four years ago, because I was feeling not confident. I had a network, but I felt like all of a sudden, and I don’t know what it was right? Everyone has these moments in their life, where they just sort of like dip down. And that was my moment. But what I noticed, like even for me personally trying to work through that was that I saw the same thing you just described, that this applies to every person. And I really love that you’ve taken especially your personal experience, like you’ve gone through that you’ve taken that moment to really focus on your family and on caregiving. And then you saw that, and I see that with women all the time as well, mothers that I you know, interact with in the school environments and all the things right? But there are plenty of other, like I know plenty of men that also have made the choice to be the stay at home parent. And I see this exact same things of confidence and self esteem being an issue when it’s their turn to go back. So this is not like a one sided piece whatsoever. I love that you’ve sort of taken this view, because it’s true. Anyone who has gone through a major life change like that shakes your feelings, and it and it changes it.

Diane Flynn  12:25

That’s right. I’d say in our Reboot programs, about a quarter of the individuals coming to us have gone through a major life transition. Usually it’s a divorce. It could be a widow. It could be, you know, they’ve been treating an elderly parent. Whatever it is, their life has changed and now they need to or want to go back to work. And this, what you’re describing around confidence, is often called the imposter syndrome. I think we all feel it, I see vigorously nodding. I you know, every time I say that word, people just really resonate. I resonate, for sure. And men do too. However, women tend, and there’s an interesting study, I’m sure many of the listeners have heard it. But they looked at who applies to jobs. And they found that a man will apply for a job if he meets roughly 60% of the criteria expected.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  13:28

Right.

Diane Flynn  13:28

Women will not apply, in general, if they don’t tick off every single box. And so we always encourage our women, you know, don’t worry about meeting every criteria. I know I’ve written job descriptions. I don’t think anyone exists, who can meet all those criteria. So if you feel like you would excel at that, and they want five years of experience, and you have two or three, but you could be great. You know, put your application in. And I have seen over and over, that people are landing these jobs, because they’re putting themselves out there. That and using your network. I have found that nothing is more valuable, whether you’re 25 or 55 or older, to getting these jobs, especially in competitive labor markets, then having some “in,” somebody who knows your work, who can speak on your behalf.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  14:23

It’s so true. And I wonder too, like now that you mentioned networks, because there is a lot of talk happening at this like diversity and equity lens right, that it can be harder to build a network, the more vulnerable of, you know, portion of the population that you are. Are you finding that as you’ve expanded your work beyond like women that have stepped out of the workforce?

Diane Flynn  14:46

Absolutely. When you describe vulnerable, can you go a little deeper?

Kelly Ryan Bailey  14:51

Well, I mean, maybe groups that are, you know, in terms of the workforce, I’m sure that I’m using the wrong words, so please correct me. But typically, we tend to say things like disadvantage, but essentially just anyone who’s underrepresented, like you described in the workforce.

Diane Flynn  15:09

Yes. And sometimes they have networks that aren’t as meaningful. When you look at, let’s just take women and people of color in the workplace. They typically don’t have access to nearly as many informal networks, or formal but informal for sure, as men. I’m married to a golfer. I cannot tell you how many deals he has done through his golf buddies. They go away and they just come up with deals. That is an example of the informal network. Some, you know, sometimes it’s around sports, sometimes it’s around hunting or drinking, you know, going out for wings and beer or whatever it is. What happens at these, you know, golf junkets or you’re out for, you know, drinks, is you hear things. You get the underbelly of the organization, you hear about opportunities. Did you know? You should apply. There’s all this encouragement. What we see and read in the research is that if you are a working mother, and you don’t golf, or don’t have time for some of these things, or perhaps don’t drink, or just need to get home at five, or six, or whenever the workday ends, because you’ve got children there, I was in this boat for sure. You’re missing out on a lot of that inside knowledge and opportunities. And so some of the things we do when we work with companies is, first of all, Employee Resource Groups, often referred to as ERG’s, are becoming more and more common. They are lifelines for many employees

Kelly Ryan Bailey  16:57

Completely.

Diane Flynn  16:58

We did focus groups for a global organization, and we did them by affinity group. Some were Blacks and Hispanics and women and millennials and moms and, you know, we did different groups. Those ERG’s were where they felt the most comfortable. That is where they brought their whole selves to work. Many of them even said I wouldn’t be at this company without that ERG.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  17:25

Wow.

Diane Flynn  17:25

And so we really drive hard with our clients about the value of those, you know, if they’re run properly. And they can be tremendous tools for product development.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  17:38

Yes.

Diane Flynn  17:38

You want to see how moms feel about your product, go to the mom ERG. Show them marketing copy, show them your images. Let them try it out. Lots of companies are using their ERG’s for marketing and product development. So they’re not, you know, sessions to sit around and complain and gripe. They are really sessions to embolden people to give people a majority experience, many of whom never feel it throughout their day. They are the “onlys” or the “lonlies” in a lot of meetings, and all of a sudden, they can show up in a space that is safe, where they can express their full self. And so that is a critical piece to creating more inclusive environments. The other place I would mention when we talk about informal networks, is mentorship. When you talk to men and again, we did this with these focus groups. Most men have mentors. They might be very informal, they might meet for five minutes, they might meet once a month, it’s not necessarily a regular thing. But those mentoring moments they talk about, you know, where do you want to go in your career? What do you need to do to get there? Who has the power in the room? Hey, I’ve got this board meeting coming up. Why don’t you come join us? I mean, they they’re invited to be in the room.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  19:04

Yep.

Diane Flynn  19:05

A lot of women we’ve seen and people of color, don’t have those opportunities. There aren’t as many people like them. A lot of mentoring comes about through affinity bias. So hey, we went to the same college, let me mentor you. Or we both belong to the same, you know, parents at the same school. Let me mentor you. So if you don’t have those natural affinities with your colleagues, you may not be on their radar to be mentored. So a lot of times when we work with executive teams, many of which are all male or male dominant, we ask who are you mentoring? What do they look like? Do they look like you? Might you choose five women or people of color? Or anyone who’s different to mentor, to specifically mentor. John Donahoe, who now runs Nike, has always talked about this, he challenges his executive team to go mentor five women, each person, five women. He’s very conscious of creating an inclusive leadership style. And that is one thing that he does. So there are ways to get around the fact that there aren’t natural networking opportunities. I would say one last one is visible role models. We talked to a lot of women in companies at junior roles who look up at the organization, and they say, it’s all white men, they clearly don’t value somebody like me. I see myself here for another year or two, and then I’m going to move on to a company that values me. So some of these companies have, since this has been pointed out, have very consciously not lowered the bar, but found talented women and people of color to put in the senior roles. And it has been a seismic shift in how women more junior in the organization and people of color feel about their opportunities.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  21:08

Yeah. Yeah. Here’s an interesting one for you, because I was just thinking about this, as you described it. So, I’m going to use myself as an example. But I happened to be a senior leader at the organization that I work for full time. There’s not many. So I’m going to be honest, there’s two. So, you know I get asked by younger women in the organization all the time, you know, like, hey, I’d love to have a conversation with you. I wonder how often this comes up, which is why I wanted to ask because of course, I have three children at home. I work my butt off all the time, just to have the success that I have internally, let alone all the external things that I’m working on. I still carve out time, even if that means taking time away from my children, who are a little older now I will say that, because I know how important it is because I’ve lived through that. But how when you talk to these, again, I’m going to use women of any, you know, color. So like I just, but just women as an example where the poll is like we have, not that I’m saying I want to be clear, not that every man doesn’t have responsibilities at home. It’s just that there is something I think we can say that out loud now, because of what you just described with that.

Diane Flynn  22:23

There is research, research that says women do three to one home tasks. So it’s out there.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  22:30

Yeah, it’s out there. So if we have the majority of the lift there, we’re trying to do all this stuff. Do you come across women who are at a higher level and a leader in their organization that would love to be it mentoring these younger women? But like to navigate when you’re trying to work so hard over here, work so hard over here, and then carve out time for this like how?

Diane Flynn  22:50

It’s hard. And what you are describing is often referred to as the minority tax. And we often hear it called the Black tax. I’ll give you an example. My partner, Dr. Alex White, is African American. She is an adjunct faculty member at Ole Miss. And she does all kinds of inclusive leadership training, including for gender awareness. And so when anything happens, whether it’s political unrest, social unrest, anything around LGBTQ, those students at Ole Miss, are in her office. And they are crying, and she is comforting, and she is listening, and she’s doing whatever she can. Her colleague, her white, male or female colleague down the hall doesn’t have that tax. They are sitting there doing their research, writing their dissertations. They’re doing everything they need to be doing to advance, while she is incurring this tax. Another way it shows up, I think she said she’s asked to be on something like 30 interview committees a year, because they want someone of color. Great, they should have someone in color. But when you don’t have many people of color, you’ve got to be mindful that every time you pick that person to serve in that role, that is a tax. So are you being aware of that? Are you compensating for it? You know, there’s an argument that perhaps if you’re going to require 10, 20% extra work from her, she should bring home more. So, it’s a little bit what you’re describing to. Women, if you’re the “onlies,” and you want to help other women, that is a tax. How can we take that tax and share it more broadly? I would submit that what John Donahoe is doing that I just described, he’s saying, hey, hey, guys, this is not just a women’s problem.  This isn’t just a people of color problem. This is all of our problem. We all have to be part of the solution. So how can we all rise to this challenge? Well, we can all mentor women, we can mentor people of color. We can sponsor them, we can give them opportunities, we can bring them into meetings, we can give them feedback, we can make sure they have professional development plans. Most of the groups we talked to, to do this inclusive leadership training are for the most part pretty male and white, for the most part. But they have recognized they bring us in because they know they have to do the work, they are in the leadership roles, and they have to message it and they have to model it. And that is how it’s going to transmit throughout the organization. So yes, what you’re saying is a challenge for women. But I would suggest it shouldn’t just be on women to help other women. We all got to, you know, we did this reflection exercise when we do an inclusive leadership training. And we asked a whole series of questions, some of which are, who are you mentoring? Who are you sponsoring? Who have you identified to succeed you?

Kelly Ryan Bailey  24:56

Right.  Mm hmm.

Diane Flynn  26:14

Who do you have lunch with? When you’re on a zoom call, there’s this new bias called distance bias that McKinsey has identified. And what it looks like is, you know, we’re all reduced a little squares right now. If I’m going to task somebody with an extra project, I’m probably going to task the person I know the best that I’m most comfortable with. I know Kelly can get the job done. Hey, Kelly, can you hang out after I have a quick project I’d like you to take on. I may not take on the person I would have run into at the watercooler or in the lunch line and thought, hey, maybe this is somebody that I can help. So we have to even be mindful on Zoom, of what kind of biases are showing up. And are we doing things to, you know, help all boats rise?

Kelly Ryan Bailey  27:05

It’s so true. And you think about like now, I mean, I talk with working mothers, especially in this time, a lot. I’m on a board of something called Mother’s Monday movement in particular. And to be honest, I hear like, I can’t turn my camera on so often right now. And it’s because like we have, you know, again, this is out there, we all know that the appearance of women is a big thing in the workplace, right? And we are not in a position especially as leaders in either our own businesses or other organizations to be seen without makeup on with our hair up in a bun with our pajamas on because a baby was up all night, for whatever reason, right? And that too leads to that probably in the Zoom rooms, right? Because like, if you’re not putting yourself out there on camera. And you’re in front of people, right? They don’t even see you. So it’s like you’re not even there.

Diane Flynn  27:57

Mm hmm. Oh, that’s exactly right. Yeah, we just got off a training with 20 people and I think 13 were on video. I literally forgot about those other seven. I mean, they were dots with initials in them. And, but but I was looking at body language of everybody who was on the screen. That’s a really interesting point.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  28:18

How, I mean, I wonder how you and you work with a lot of people and a lot of companies, how do you address something like that? Where obviously, you know, I get I get the perspective from the people that don’t want to be on camera, right? But I also know how important it is. And so, you know, I personally have to make an effort every day to be what I call, I joke with my husband, I’m like, hold on, I gotta get camera ready. I’ve got all the filters on.

Diane Flynn  28:45

Only from the waist up.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  28:47

 Right? I wore my pajama pants yesterday on a big call.

Diane Flynn  28:53

I always joke that I like Zoom because I only have to do the front half of my hair. Well, I think that you know, we’re all in this together. I think the one thing about Zoom that is a positive is it has been very humanizing. You know, the number of Zoom calls where people are moving to get away from leaf blowers, or cats, or children, or spouses, or showing up in their, I was in my bathroom for a meeting the other day that quickly got all that six. And by the end, the woman said, I think you’d be a great speaker for our organization. I’m like really, I’ve never gotten a, you know, new deal in my bathrobe before. But I think there are opportunities to, I don’t know what kind of lower the bar in this situation. I don’t know if you saw the woman’s LinkedIn profile that went viral. She was a young mom and she had this beautiful photo that came up when she wasn’t on video. And she realized that was so non-representative as what it really looked like, which was frazzled, no makeup kids crawling all over her. And so she re-took her LinkedIn profile photo, and posted it and just said, this is the real me right now in COVID. And this thing went viral. I forget how many people.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  30:17

I’m so happy to heat that.

Diane Flynn  30:18

Yeah, but I think we all have to be more human, more filled with grace, more understanding. I’ve met with plenty of women who have said, I haven’t worn makeup all through COVID, ou know. And so that can be challenging in certain cultures, I suppose, where maybe that’s not. But maybe we can all be leaders and lower that bar a little bit to create an environment where people do feel more comfortable, because I think there is some beauty in people just showing up as who they are.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  30:52

I totally agree. Like, I have no problem. And I’ve been in robe meetings as well, by the way. But I have no problem how anyone shows up. I’m like, just be like, I just want to see them because I want to see them not because I care at all what they look like. But I wonder if when you’re doing these trainings with companies, because I have a few I have, I cannot, I’m really certain that there have been people stepping forward through this saying, like, hey, I’m really uncomfortable to look like that in front of leaders in my organization. How would you go about, you know, within the trainings of these companies that you work with, to really say, like, hey, we need to give everybody some grace here.

Diane Flynn  31:31

I think it can be messaged and it can be modeled. So I mean, you could technically say this is a “come as you are” day. If you’re a woman, maybe that’s no makeup, maybe you come in your bathroom if you’re a man. I don’t know.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  31:46

Yeah.

Diane Flynn  31:47

I don’t know where you come in. So you can do a “come as you are.” As a leader, you can say, hey, this week, I’m not wearing makeup, I’m not doing my hair, I’m gonna put it up in a knot and so be it. We’re just gonna show up with who we are. And so I do think it has to start at the top.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  32:05

Okay.

Diane Flynn  32:05

Because in most organizations, it would be considered too risky.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  32:13

Right.

Diane Flynn  32:14

Not all I think, you know, there are companies like Facebook and Google and many others where many new ideas are modeled and led at, you know, more junior levels very effectively. So I’m not saying it can’t happen. But I think if you are a leader and you’re listening to this, it is something to think about. That the pressure that you’re putting on people right now, who are so stretched. There’s a great, a great slide in the McKinsey report that I cited, that talks about the unprecedented levels of burnout, of stress, of anxiety. And as leaders, I always say there’s two things you have to do. You have to communicate, and you have to be flexible. And we have a company who, where I was asking them, are you losing your women because women are quitting in droves. And it was a significant number have quit just this last month. And it’s because it’s unsustainable, they cannot do it all. So we are always asking our clients, what are you doing to retain women? And one proudly said last week, we had three women come to us, pretty senior women, who all wanted to quit. And because they listened and demonstrated flexibility, they were able to keep two of them. One of them, they said take three weeks off PTO and come back half time for the foreseeable future. The other I don’t know exactly what they did, but it was around flexibility. And then the third one just said, nope, can’t do this.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  33:55

Yeah.

Diane Flynn  33:56

But if they hadn’t had those conversations, to really seek to understand what are the trials and challenges right now? And how can we as a company, who cares about you accommodate that? You are going to lose key talent. And people remember how they were treated when the chips were down. So you know, we are going to be out of this at some point. This too shall pass I have to remind myself that daily. And when it does pass, you know, you’re going to remember how did my company treat me when we were going through these really challenging days because these are challenging days.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  34:34

They truly are. And I think you’ve inspired me now I’m going to have to do a podcast like a robe podcast one day, we’re just going to go for it because it’s totally fine.

Diane Flynn  34:45

I think it’s more than fine. I think it’s, it’s you know, and in some ways, I think we all subscribe to what the media tells us how we need to show up, and I think that’s contributing to these feelings of burnout and anxiety.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  35:04

Yeah, completely. So I know you mentioned in, when I was reading through your bio, you’ve also done a lot of talks on ageism. We’ve now been talking a little bit about sort of like gender diversity that could I wonder now like taking this question into ageism. Because I’m guessing that the majority these, you know, and maybe this may have been in your case too, if you had raised children, right, in the whole scheme of things, you were slightly maybe older than if you had stepped out for that time. I wonder how you’re seeing that sort of be represented in a workplace? As one other issue, especially, I would say, from both angles, right people and also from the companies?

Diane Flynn  35:44

Yeah, it’s hard, I’ll speak first from the candidate, the job candidate, because we have a lot of women in their 40s/50s/60s, beyond who want back in. And the problem is, they have this huge gap on their resume. And they show up, and they may not look like the 28 year old hiring manager. And there is a bias, I’ve heard it my own household, like, Mom, old people can’t do technology. And so I tried to defy that myth by being really technically savvy and watching a lot of YouTube videos on how to do that. But that is why we teach a class on growth mindset. And being a lifelong learner, is whether you’re in your 20s or your 60s, every job today requires constant learning on the job. You’re using new software and new tools and new ideas all the time. So, being a lifelong learner is key, and saying, I can do it. Also finding the right culture. You know, we had one company call us and say, we really want your women, we think they’d be great. But, can they work with young people next to a ping pong table? Well, sometimes I remind them, you know, most of them have teenage children, and have a lot of you know, I had a poker game going on a safe distance poker game in my backyard last night with my 19 year old son, you know, I’m actually comfortable and really liked being around young people. But it is a bias that some people have. Sometimes it’s not going to be the right fit. We place a lot of women, were here in the Bay Area right next to Stanford University. A lot of our people go to work for Stanford, because Stanford is an institution that does seem to value age experience, pattern recognition, some of the things, communication skills that slightly older people tend to bring. And we always encourage people don’t dismiss the skills that you’ve developed even when you didn’t get a paycheck.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  37:49

Yes.

Diane Flynn  37:50

I ran our parent organization. I had to bring a lot of skills to the table. You didn’t get paid for them, but I still was developing them. So we say, you know, reframe that and bring it to a future employer. On the employer front, again, what we try to communicate is that diverse and inclusive teams are going to drive to the best decision making, expanded markets, and bottom line performance. Let me give you one quick example of, I work a little bit with Chip Conley, who’s an advisor at Airbnb to Brian Chesky. And he, you know, just turned 60. And he came in, in his early 50s, to be an advisor, and he worked with people in their 20s and early 30s. And he said he was constantly challenged, and he was called the elder and the modern elder and all that. But I think he had and I hope I’m properly crediting him and not somebody else, but I heard this from him. They were going to develop Airbnb as a phone app. And Chip said, wait a minute here, a lot of our hosts, and our Airbnb users are older people who don’t have great eyes, and aren’t digital natives, and still use laptops or desktops. So to have an app that only works on a phone is a huge missed opportunity. And I believe chip even brought in as interns one summer, two of their older people, I think they might have been in their 70s.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  39:28

That’s amazing.

Diane Flynn  39:30

They were super hosts for Airbnb. And their whole job that summer was really to provide the perspective of older people who are on the Airbnb platform. And so what we try to tell companies is you need diversity of all those shapes and sizes and age diversity is another form of cognitive diversity that you can benefit from, especially if you have a product line that sells to older people.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  39:58

Umm Hmm.

Diane Flynn  40:00

You want to make sure that you’re using the right marketing language that you’re using the right visuals. And so a lot of the progressive companies now are developing something called reverse internships, where they pair an older person with a younger person, often thought of as digital IQ, or digital quotient with emotional quotient.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  40:26

It’s so funny you said that. I was thinking it.

Diane Flynn  40:29

Yeah, and so the older person might learn a lot about social media and technology and things maybe they weren’t as familiar with throughout their life. And the younger person will learn a lot about gravitas and presence and pattern recognition and judgment and all the mistakes that we older people have made and learned from. And so those kinds of mentoring relationships are really valuable and more companies are starting to implement those.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  41:00

Exactly. And I feel like, I mean, I’m sure that there is a break at when this happens. But I know for me, I did not, I was on the cusp of like, technology really wasn’t a thing until I was in college, you know, so like, I grew up without technology, and you have to develop very different skills in your life, how to communicate all of the things that you’re doing. And obviously, we have to transition that as we start to get older. But, you know, I’ve kind of like straddled that, where I have a little bit of both, but you notice that it just again, generally speaking, the younger people that are growing up with full technology, they tend to not be as great of communicators, as someone who maybe did not grow up with technology, which is it’s kind of interesting to me, and maybe going back to that lifelong learning piece. It’s something that, you know, those reverse internships can really tackle.

Diane Flynn  41:49

Well, you know, and interesting, communication skills. I have three kids in their 20s. And their default is slack, text, email. It’s written, and it’s quick, and it’s often not even, you know, grammatically correct, which as a former copy editor kind of kills me. But, that’s how they communicate. And I think there’s some real benefits to that. It’s efficient, it’s effective. But I also think there’s times when picking up the phone or meeting face to face is a much more effective way, you know, if you’re delivering some really challenging news, or if you are trying to sell or be persuasive, or if you just want to read that person’s body language. And so I think the combination of learning from each other, when is the right time to pick up the phone, or grab coffee, and when is the right time to be more efficient? So I learn so much from them, and I like to believe they learn from me. And that, to me, is the intergenerational potluck that we need to keep promoting.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  42:57

I completely agree. I really love, Diane, how you’re, you know, you’re again, what I learned as Reboot Accel, when I you know, first met you many years ago, how you’ve really transitioned that to sort of, especially as the world is changing, I love this new direction, or maybe like, extra that you’re you’ve added in. And you know, I really appreciate you coming on here today. I think, you know, we’re getting close to the end of our time. So I’d love to leave you with the last couple minutes. I know it’s fairly open ended. But is there any last sort of parting words, if you will, that you’d like to leave with our audience?

Diane Flynn  43:34

You know, you mentioned how we kind of keep pivoting and expanding and changing our lens and I think the little bit I’d like to leave you with, and I hope I pronounced it, correctly. It’s a Japanese concept and it’s called Ikigai.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  43:51

I’ve heard of that. Yes.

Diane Flynn  43:53

Ikigai, I believe. Ikigai. And it’s simply four concentric circles. And each circle, so one is your talents or your gifts, what you’re bringing to the world. The second is your passions, what you care about. The third is what the world needs. And the fourth is what the world will pay for. So assuming you’re looking for your career where you want a paycheck, I would argue that the closer you can get to that intersecting point of those four things, the more joy and fulfillment you will find in life and I do think you will be more effective because you are bringing all your passions and skills to the table in a way that people need and consume them. And so when I keep expanding what we’re doing I’m always very conscious of that. You know what am I good at? What do I care about? What does the world need? When George Floyd was killed this summer it hit me, it should have hit me much sooner, but it hit me then that I need to be doing more for a broader group of people than just women. I need to find all underrepresented people and help them with the same tools that I’m using for women. So that piece. And then, you know, I do want to make this my living. So, where will people put put their money? And right now, companies are putting money behind diversity and inclusion, and training and consulting, and ERG formation, and women’s leadership workshops, and all of that. And so I’m very mindful of how can I continue to work toward that small, you know, overlapping, chunk in the Ikigai circles.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  45:44

I’m making a note of it right now, because I absolutely love these parting words. And I’ll make sure that when we publish this, that we include, maybe just you know, an article about that, or a photo of that are so graphic of sorts, because I agree. I think it is so important that that passion piece, when you can bring that into, you know, what you’re I feel like that professional and personal right now, that’s probably one of my most favorite things that have happened from COVID is we are now recognizing that they’re not separate. It’s really just overlapped and together and all intertwined as part of our life and our journey. And so why not make the most of it and be happy?

Diane Flynn  46:25

Absolutely. I do a lot of coaching of mainly women. And I use that diagram quite a bit, because many, many people are searching for fulfilment. And I always say, if your core non-negotiable values don’t align with your work, your day to day work, you will never find true joy and happiness. And so we always start with a values exercise. Do you know your values? What are your values? Is it flexibility? Is it financial security? Is it collaboration? Is it having an impact on the world? What are those values that are non-negotiable? And then how can we map them to those four circles, and I think it’s a really valuable construct, for getting closer to sparking joy.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  47:17

I wholeheartedly agree, Diane. So Diane, for our audience, I’m feeling like if there’s people that are looking for coaching, if there’s companies that are looking to retain you for services, and helping them with their culture, and anyone else who’s interested in maybe taking some courses, or of course, your book, which again, I highly, highly recommend. Can they find that all at rebootaccel.com?

Diane Flynn  47:45

They sure can. Everything is on there. And you’re welcome to give them my email address if they have specific questions or opportunities or comments. I’m always interested in hearing those as well.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  48:01

Oh, well, thank you. That’s so sweet. And for anyone I think you’re most I had you down as most active on LinkedIn, if I remember correctly.

Diane Flynn  48:08

Yes, that would be my social media platform of choice.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  48:13

Yes. Okay. So if anyone wants to go and follow Diane, as well, that would be the place on LinkedIn, of course, rebootaccel.com. And I think they’re available on every social platform as well. So again, Diane, thank you so much for joining us today. It has been such a pleasure to continue to see sort of this new transition for you and how much this is truly impacting so many people.

Diane Flynn  48:40

Thank you for having me, Kelly, really nice to spend time together.

Kelly Ryan Bailey  48:44

Thank you and thank you all for listening in to Let’s Talk About Skills Baby. You can find us on YouTube, Spotify, iTunes, and of course you can find me at Kelly Ryan Bailey on all the socials. Although yes, I am with Diane on LinkedIn being my most favorite of all the platforms. Well hope you all have a wonderful day and see you next time.