Curiosity + Experience = Innovation

Episode Transcript

SB S1 E19 – Lameen Abdul-Malik

Kelly: [00:00:00] Hi, everyone. Welcome to Let’s Talk About Skills, Baby. I am your host Kelly Ryan Bailey. Each week, I chat with inspiring visionaries about the skills that make them successful, how they develop those skills and their innovative approaches to improving skills-based hiring and learning around the world. Come learn what skills help you live your best life.

Today, we’re joined by Lameen Abdul Malique. Lameen, thank you so much for joining us. How are you today?

Lameen: Thanks for inviting me onto your very interesting podcast with that name. I really like it.

Kelly: Thank you. It is such a pleasure to have you here. Well, before we jump in, let me give a little bit of background.

So Lameen is currently the CEO of Honest Management and the managing director of Proof Nutrition. In 2005, Lameen was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize with [00:01:00] the International Atomic Energy Agency. At the IEA, he developed a regional strategy to help over 41 African countries use nuclear service and technology to address their primary development challenges in health, agriculture, and radiation safety.

Prior to that, he started his career working at the UK department for international development, where he worked on international trade debt relief and economic and social research. Lameen is also very passionate about coffee and has been writing about coffee for over 13 years on his blog From Coffee, With Love.

Recently, he was featured on CNN as well. I know you shared that with me and I loved it. In June, 2019, he was invited to participate at the international coffee organization and European Union coffee symposium on the UN Sustainable Development Goals, where he interacted with global players, such as Starbucks, Nestle.[00:02:00]

Is it Illie? Am I pronouncing that right? Okay. I mean, I love coffee too. As they discussed ways to which which to improve the coffee value chain. This is just so fascinating. And then following his departure from IAEA, he has set himself a goal of having a positive impact on at least 1 million people’s lives within the next five years using his skill sets and development education.

And of course in coffee. I love this. I’m like so excited to dive in on all of these things.

I feel like the biggest question is as I sit here without a coffee, which I realize I should have had a coffee that would have been completely fake, but you know what I feel like a question I had for you. And I’m sure most people that love coffee and have been doing coffee, working with coffee for a long time, is what is the best at home coffee when you’re [00:03:00] not out and about?

Lameen: I think probably least expensive. So obviously there’s espresso, which is very, actually very complicated and very expensive to make espresso. You have to buy a machine, a really good machine for ideally between one to 3000 dollars. My machine cost this, and I didn’t tell my wife the price for that.

But of course, I mean, it’s like an investment. So I think at home a lot of people might frown at things like the French press, but I really, if you get a really good coffee and I mean, like roasted by specialists and a good grinder, just for a very simple thing like a French press, you can actually get a really good cup of coffee.

In fact, I’m just in transit at the moment. So I actually brought my gadgets. I brought my French press and other gadgets, like Arab press. And I brought my grinder with me, so as I said to you in summary, you’ve got a good grinder, good coffee and a French prench. It’s very simple. I think sometimes it’s cool to apply.

And then if you just basically grind it [00:04:00] correctly, you get a good roast, then maybe slightly more of a fruity blend. Like a Kenyan coffee is really good. Additionally, it’s 15 grams of coffee to about 250 millimeters of off the board hot water, excuse me, a recipe. So that’s very, very, very simple way to brew coffee at home.

And that’s actually how I started getting into coffee, just using a French press and really good coffee.

Kelly: That’s so interesting. We do have a French press, because I love espresso, and of course we were in the process of potentially looking at another machine, but I just have an nespresso machine. I’m sure that that’s terrible in your world.

Lameen: Well, my brother actually has one and I’m sorry about that. My brother actually has one and the awesome specialist roasters have actually started doing capsules for Nespresso machine. In fact that I went to a really nice coffee roastery just today, in the afternoon in [00:05:00] Dubai, and they’ve actually started doing capsules as well.

So it could be, it is possible. Some roasters are maybe showing that in the US there might be some that already experimented with that because they know that some people who have Nespresso, of course, its very good for convenience, but they might want something different, they might want to an exceptional tasting coffee from a different part of the world that you can’t get from Nespresso.

So that is another avenue that’s available as well.

Kelly: Well. Wow. I’m like one day when I get to come and visit and just go to the various coffee places with you is something I’m really looking forward to.

Lameen: Yeah, of course. You’re very welcome. And I’ve actually started doing like a map of different cafes in Dubai already, and the scene is really exploded here, which is actually fantastic. So, but definitely by the time you come, we would have a few places to choose to show you coffee.

Fantastic. And if

Kelly: anyone wants to follow along with this journey as well, I know I’ll mention it later, but he Lameen runs in Instagram account, [00:06:00] from coffee with love. And so you can keep track of where he’s headed and the spots that he recommends.

I wanted to take this back a little bit because I’ve given some highlights, some amazing accomplishments in your life that I would just love to get a little bit more flavor on sort of like what led you and how you started out, how you ended up on this path and what led you to where you are today?

Lameen: Yeah. I mean, it depends how far back you want to, I can go back to university or I can go back later. So, I’ll give you the option to choose how far.

Kelly: Whatever feels most natural to you because sometimes things happen in our childhood that really sort of like lead us on our path. So I think that’s up to you.

Lameen: Okay. So, I mean, maybe I could probably start like before 10 years old. So I used to love drawing. My favorite subject at school actually was art. [00:07:00] I used to draw a lot of like airplanes, a lot, just drawing airplanes. And I love traveling.

I remember my mom actually used to work for an airline, which is now bankrupt, called Sabina. It was the Belgian national carrier back in the seventies and the eighties. And because of that, she actually used to get like really cheap tickets, like for like 10%. And she was like, my earliest childhood memory was, traveling to different places.

I remember by the time I was 10 years old, I could tell my classmates I’ve talked about 14 countries. Wow. So I love the idea of traveling. Traveling for me was like very exciting. I’ll dress, like in my best clothes to travel. But moving forward a little bit, I remember when I was a university and in my third year we had to choose like electives.

I did economics and I was actually quite intrigued by using economics to basically eliminate poverty. I should say, maybe it’s a little bit slightly naive if I talk about 20 years later. But one thing that really stuck was and I always [00:08:00] use this when I used to go for interviews, people always say, why did you apply to us?

And I remember my final like interview, so we had seminar teachers and he asked me, what would you like to do with your life, your career? I said, oh, I’d love to work for something like the world bank and help poor people.

And he laughed at me practically and said, oh, to work for the world bank, you have to be really, really intelligent, you should have a lower goal. Well, it didn’t discourage me, but fast forward 2005 and I’m working for United Nations international atomic energy agency.

I’m using the best science and technology to actually give you a policy. And of course, in 2005, my colleagues and I are awarded the Nobel peace prize. If I had said, when I graduate university, I want to win a Nobel peace prize. He probably would have wrote me off then.

But I think one of the lessons that I learned from that. Whatever you want to do, just start the journey. You never know what doors are gonna open for you. Don’t get [00:09:00] discouraged by people on your path that will say, oh no, you’re, you’re not smart enough to do that. Or you should set your goals on this.

You should set your goals on that, just start the journey. You never know what is around the corner. And I always like, maybe we would get to this later on, like on skills. I always tell people, like people sometimes come to me and say, oh, I mean, can you give me some carrier advice? One of the things I always said to people like, well, what did you like when you were 10 years old?

And they looked at me. What’s that going to do with anything? I said, well, I’m trying to take you back to what you were passionate about before everybody started telling you they’ve got to be a doctor and they could be an engineer. You got to be a lawyer. I’m asking you that question. I know it’s not conventional, but life, should not be conventional.

So what did you really like? What were you passionate about? And then start from there. You might not be able to get into that start straight away, but at least spend some time on your weekend. Even if it’s one hour, just revisiting your passion, whether it’s like art or baking or cooking or [00:10:00] cycling or being outdoors, just start. I think it’s part of like, keeping your heart alive, having a daily connection with what ever really enlights your heart.

Kelly: So true though, because if you don’t put any time, I mean, I find it just like your mindset around other things that you can do in your life when you actually enjoy the things that you spend your time on, is you have such a different view. Was this coffee for you?

Lameen: Yeah, so, I mean, fast forward to 2005. In 2005, my family and I went to Italy, going to see my cousin, my cousin is married to an Italian and we went to like an apartment and he said, oh, have you ever had mocha port?

And I said, no, what’s that? So he actually gave us a mocha port and give us some like typical Italian coffee. And I said, okay, well I’ll just try it out a bit. And then it was like a different [00:11:00] experience with my taste buds. I thought, oh, I’ll never taste a coffee like this before. This is different. So after that I got back to Vienna from holiday, I thought, let me just experiment.

And back then, of course, internet was fairly new. I decided to love research on coffee. And then I started hearing about espresso. And I thought, this is fascinating, you know? Wow. I never knew coffee could taste like this. So then I started getting into coffee and then I bought one expresso machine that didn’t do the job.

Second espresso machine is still didn’t do the job, of course the parameters that we’re talking about was really, really complicated, that’s what I said early on about, especially to be actually very complicated. And then in about 2006, 2007, I can’t remember now, they started the first actually coffee conference in London called the cafe culture.

And I went to that and I met what we call world barista championships. So basically. World barista championship is basically who makes the best coffee in the world, there’s actually a competition for that on an annual basis. And I met I met an English guy who had just [00:12:00] won, I think James Hoffman.

And I was in a conference, he started asking me lots of questions. And he was sharing so much information to me. And then by middle of 2007, I thought, well, I’ve got all this knowledge, what should I do with it? Well, let me just start blogging and just start writing and sharing my knowledge. There’s no point me just holding onto it, what’s it going to do for me?

Let me just share it. Of course, I started getting more into coffee, then I bought more machines and I used to import and buy coffee from different places in the world and taste them at home and just try them out. And they started writing about my experiences. That’s how I started.

So, I mean, maybe a lesson from that is if you find something you’re passionate about, I think last time I share with you, curiosity plus experience equals innovation.

Kelly: I still have that written on a post-it right in front of me.

Lameen: So I’ve always been into food, before I was 10 years old, I was already baking cakes with my mum.

And I love cakes and I always have to have [00:13:00] that once a day. I think we shared about this earlier on and so forth. So taste buds and things like that, that kind of delights my tastebuds and challenges me, for me its just interesting and fascinating. So yeah, and then I think in 2013, I was approached by CNN and they were doing a special on coffee in Vienna.

And they said, oh, would you like to write for us? So I did that and every year they publish something on international coffee day and then CNN also quote me about what to drink coffee on, what kind of coffee it is, or what kind of coffee you should order if you’re in Vienna for example.

So again, just going back, just start your passion. You never know what roads might open for you, but the most important thing it’s always just to start and never give up.

Kelly: It’s so true. And it sounds like you really had to focus on your own mindset as well, because it sounded like there was someone out there that had said to you, and I often find this sort of[00:14:00] people are offering friendly advice and they’re trying to help you in their life when in fact, they’re actually, sort of maybe stopping you from going because, and there’s a lot of people that would hear something like that and then in their minds they would be like, oh right, I’m not going to do that. That’s fine. But you had to be strong enough to say, thank you. I’m going to go do my thing.

Lameen: Yes, exactly.

I mean, I think you’re right what you said about mindset. We talk a lot about whether it’s growth mindset, fixed mindset. And growth mindsets is, it’s not about what’s happening to me its about, well, how can I happen to the world, for example. And a fixed minsdet is always focused on, oh, this is my talent. I’ve lived to learn this, even though I might be great at this, I’m fixed at this. So again, if with developing skills and talents, and there’s a difference between that, talents and gifts. So you can actually develop your talent, a gift to something to be you were born [00:15:00] with.

But your talents, you can always work on. You can also work on your skills, definitely. There’s no end to that. The world is growing and this discoveries every day, so there can never be an end to knowledge.

Kelly: Right? Exactly. And I feel like their coffee experience is such a great example of that because it’s, it’s not as if you, you went and you tried that mocha poor, is that what it was?

Lameen: A mocha pot.

Kelly: I’m like envisioning like the poor over. So okay, mocha pot, in italy. This came to you this like sensation that you’ve never experienced before, and then you fell in love and you just kept going. And I feel like that’s a perfect example because it’s not as if we just all come out being experts in whatever it is, we have to work at that.

Lameen: Definitely. Jay Shetty mentioned once about expertise and he said if you’re not experienced at something, its because you haven’t actually experienced it yet. [00:16:00] It’s a process. No one is born an expert or with having 30 years of experience at 20 years old, it’s the journey.

And every day you take a step towards the journey. You’re actually reaching your goal. Because you’re getting close to your goal. So goals should not be seen as something that’s an end the game, but it could be something that’s daily. If you take a step, you’ve actually reached your goal for that day, try and see every day as a goal. Not saying, okay, I’m going to reach my goal next year.

I’m going to lose weight in 2022, or I’m going to be a million year in 2030. Just start the journey and every day, hopefully you’re moving towards that goal. So you have daily goals, hourly goals.

Kelly: Right? Right. It could be. And it’s those small incremental steps, it’s just not going to happen overnight for anyone.

So I know a lot of times we’ll look at other people’s lives and think like, oh man, they were so lucky. The luck is sort of a mixture of skill and opportunity, but it’s not just as if that happened. Sally [00:17:00] Ann who introduced us, she often says to me, well what’s happening right now was like nine years in the making. And I love that because people have to remember, like, there was all of this stuff that happened before this point.

Lameen: Exactly, exactly. Definitely. Because sometimes we look at where we are now, but we forget about where we started, for example. Like sometimes some of my friends say to me, oh, wow, you’re so lucky your kids are already at university. And I said, It’s a process. We didn’t just come out of my wife’s tummy already at university, they’re going to get into one of these things.

They have to grow, they have to crawl, they have to walk, they have to go to school. They have to do the exams. They have to apply to university. It’s like that in life. It’s a process.

Kelly: Right? Exactly. I feel like this is a good lesson to remind people of that, things take time.

But these passions that you described, beyond the [00:18:00] fact that you went ahead and started researching and documenting that in a blog and then moved to social media and then this connection with CNN of course, you’ve just recently turned this into a business in and of itself.

And so I’d love to kind of talk about that a little bit more just to share with people that these things that we call our side passions that maybe we’re pursuing, not necessarily as our full-time job, it doesn’t mean that it can’t be. It’s just the things that sort of happen to get us there.

So tell us a little bit about how you went from being, the person who wow coffee is amazing, I’m going to go into that, I’m going to research, I’m going to start to become knowledgeable about this to an expert to now like, okay. I think I’m ready for the next step?

Lameen: Yeah. So maybe I probably go back about 10 years ago.

So I actually had two stints at the IEA. The first one actually ended in 2009. And naturally when I was in that position I knew it was gonna end in 2009 because [00:19:00] that organization gives you a fixed seven years for professional staff. So of course, naturally I was in a normal Fain applying for lots of jobs.

Oh gosh, I’m not getting any jobs. I said to myself, in middle of 2009, you know what, maybe it’s time for me to pursue my passion and actually have a cafe. So after a bit of while of course convincing my wife and my kids, we actually decided to move to Cape town. So I actually had my first coffee shop from September 2010 to about February 2013.

So the move there, set up my cafe. And I always use this lesson always listen to your wife. So when I had my cafe, it was very tough. I think the first four or five months, it was very, very tough. And of course, I think one or two days where we wouldn’t even have like, even up to 10 customers.

So we’ve been moving into a new city, no one really knows your. Cape Town, I have to say this, is very cliquey. So people kind of stayed stay to themselves. And I just want people to have the [00:20:00] best coffee. So I knew based on my research and speaking with people that, I could handle myself in making really good coffee.

Then my wife said to me, why don’t you just tell everybody you have a Nobel peace prize? And I was like, why? I just want people to have coffee. I don’t want them to know anything about me. I want the product to be the king. She said, no, just tell them. So I said, okay, fine. We’ll tell them that. So what did I do? I put in the cafe, like a quiz.

So I created a plaque card and I said, so two of my staff had very unique skills. One of them actually became almost a professional football player, I think in America you call that soccer. Yeah. But on the day before he was supposed to go, he broke his leg. And then my main barrister had been working for about five years.

So I just put on three things. Did you know that one of us was awarded a Nobel peace prize? Did you know that one of us almost played professional football? Did you know that one of us have been working with coffee for five years? So some of the customers will come and say why are you guys lying? We’d be like what do you mean? He said who won a Nobel peace prize in this cafe?

And I was, oh, I did. He said [00:21:00] oh, where’s the awards? My wife said, you know what, go and frame the award and put it in the cafe. And then, so I did that and people were like, oh my God, this is true. And then of course, then I started getting a lot of media attention and food writers com came to the cafe as well.

One of the things that I did is again, things take time and going back to cheesecake. So when I first met my wife, I asked her, what’s your favorite dessert? She said I love cheesecake. So I said, okay, I’m going to try and make, I didn’t really eat cheesecake back then. So I wanted to try and make cheesecake and my wife is going to say, wow, this is great.

So it took me seven years to develop cheesecake recipe where my wife said to me, that’s it don’t change the recipe ever again. So when I got that recipe, from then on, even some of my colleagues started ordering cheesecake from me. So I had that in the cafe and a famous food writer, came to my cafe.

She goes, oh my God, this is the best cheesecake in Cape Town. [00:22:00] I said, really? She said, yes, she goes, first of all, increase the price. I put the price up, but then she actually wrote, she put a double spread, the famous Sunday magazine on me. And from then on boom.

Yeah, we broke even. So I always say always listen to your wife.

Kelly: Right? I feel like you should say this to my husband then.

I have another thing to add to my bucket list, which is like, I hope that you’d be willing to make cheesecake when I come to visit. Of course, I will bring scones.

Lameen: Yeah, of course. I heard you’ve got some really, really nice scones. I’m very intrigued by the way you described it last time. We can definitely do a swap.

Definitely, I’ll do the cheesecake and you bring the scones, we can have some cream and nice jams.

Kelly: I had to actually go into [00:23:00] the bakery on Sunday and make scones. And I was, I hadn’t actually made them in the bakery in about a year because we have staff, pastry chefs at the bakery, to do these things. But yeah, I was actually in the bakery making scones, and I don’t know the equipment that you may have had in your coffee shop, but the equipment in the bakery is like quite large.

Lameen: Oh, I didn’t have anything that grand.

Kelly: So you had the cafe, and I love too that you brought you as a person into this business because a lot of times we think like, oh, even though it seems like a really great accomplishment, like we often are concerned about coming across in the wrong way.

I’m sure you don’t want to be like, oh, well I have an ego or anything like that. And it’s not that at all. It’s just that that’s who [00:24:00] you are. And all these parts of you that make you unique is part of what makes the experience of people coming to your shop unique to.

Lameen: Yes, exactly. Today, someone was asking me, how did I run my cafe?

And I said to them that in fact, at the beginning, of course I was doing all the baking. So my staff were doing the coffee preparation and serving, and I did all the food, but of course, as we got more publicity, people started coming to the cafe to see me. So I had to train my staff how to do some of the food because I couldn’t do everything.

So people would say, oh, where’s Lameen, I want to see him. And people will come and take pictures and things like that. So it was a little bit embarassing but, but then of course, that drew the crowd and I want to always have a personal touch. And what I loved about running my cafe was no day was the same to always meet different types of people.

And they always want to ask you lots of different questions, not just about coffee or food, but international affairs or what do you think about [00:25:00] this? Or what do you think about that? Then we got a TV interview, a radio interview, and then a lot of the main newspapers also covered us. But again, it’s just going back to what I said earlier and just start the process.

You never know what will happen. Running the cafe, it was doing really bad, then we added the concept about going back to what I won the Nobel peace prize. And I think there’s also lessons in that when you sometimes will be, when we’re going forward, we tend sometimes to forget like our background and that could also be very interesting for people.

In fact, if we talk about where I am now, yes. So now I’m offering like coffee consultancy services. Basically, I want to help people who want to actually set up a cafe. Or also exising coffee establishment, obviously with COVID, cafes have been shutting down. I always tell people that say, why would you want to help someone open up a cafe?

I say, well, coffee consumption is not going down. So maybe those cafes had had a bad business plan. And in fact, in Dubai, just [00:26:00] last week, we were speaking to a cafe owner and apparently he told us, and he said that basically the licenses in Dubai for establishing in the coffee shop have expired. So basically there’s a cap.

So if you wanted to open up a coffee shop in Dubai, you have to wait to 2021. So here everybody, there’s a recession, but obviously it’s something that everybody wants to have. And in 2010, the same thing happened in London. In fact, during the recession in 2010, it was the fastest growing sector in London in 2010, was actually opening up a cafe.

So coffee consumption has never gone down since the history of, to the best of my knowledge. So people still want to have that that special treat. Coffee is still the second most traded commodity in the world after oil, and it’s still the most popular beverage in the world.

I think even more popular than Coca-Cola. So after water, it’s coffee, if you look at the consumption level.

Kelly: That’s personally how [00:27:00] I rank them.

Lameen: So, don’t forget about your pause. So, two things I want to do is also look at not just coffee consultancy. And in fact, I’ve developed a course on how to establish a coffee business and also have a bonus on how to position yourself, even with COVID times.

And also I’m also looking at providing services related to my previous background in international affairs. I did a lot of work for example, in cancer, in Africa, with Kenya, with Sudan, with Namibia, Zambia, I helped somebody create a first really therapy center for treating cancer. I also worked with Zimbabwe as well.

So those are some of the main countries that I helped in terms of cancer management. So I have those skill sets. So there’s no point in saying, oh, I don’t want to do that anymore, but find something that even if you want to change your career, find something that you really love in that area. I think I’ve posted about something like this before, this something you really love, try and get extra training before you leave.

Also just do a [00:28:00] little bit more research in that area and also use social media. So about, I knew I was going to leave the IEA 30th of November, 2019. Because my seven years was up basically. But again, a year before that had already created the concept of honest managements. So what I do is I created on a hashtag.

So I obviously still use that in LinkedIn and I always talk a lot about leadership and management because the idea of honest management basically means that people should be honest. Well, two things, they should be honest with themselves that they really want to know how they want to progress. So just be in a bit of research into yourself to know, okay, what is it that I really want to do in my life?

So that’s your managing your life, honestly. And also I think if managers or leaders are honest, then that helps people because if in charge of people’s lives they really love people to be honest with them. I don’t know anybody in the world. I haven’t met anybody that loves leaders or managers to lie to them.

So I think if you’re honest and open with people, you would actually get more from [00:29:00] them. So the idea of what it’s measuring came from then on it initially on LinkedIn, I was just posting about I did, I think a serious 12 things an honest manager should do. I still say I talk about management and then of course I talked a little bit about coffee.

So just start planning a year ahead of time doing a bit of ground work. Again, just find something that you really love. The idea of cancer management, because the impact on people’s lives is tremendous. If you call one person of cancer, especially in Africa where it’s a very maternal environment.

So basically the mother is healthy, then the children are healthy. Obviously the men go out to work traditionally, but the woman is like the mainstay of the house and suddenly more women get cancer then men. So, if you think about it from that aspect where you help a country, many of the cancer, the impact on the society is as phenomenal.

That’s what I kind of loved about it. Also. I had obviously some losses in my family and my father, my brother-in-law, my grandfather’s passed away from cancer. So for me, it was [00:30:00] also something personal to say, okay, I’ve had this in my life loss in my life. I can now also help other people too, to kind of manage that process as well. So they don’t go through what I went through as well.

Kelly: Right. Yeah, no, that’s really touching because I’m sure. It’s fascinating to me how you’ve pulled together all of these areas that you have like personal feelings towards to create something that’s new. And I’m so glad that you’ve shared that and that there is groundwork that goes into that.

You’re not going to just turn on that light switch one day and it’s all going to be up and running. You went through the process, but it really was something that was personal and a passion for you that led you into these areas.

Lameen: Yeah, that’s right. Yeah.

Kelly: And to mix up those skills that you have with those passions.

That’s the piece that’s so fascinating to me. So in that year process, you mentioned, just like brushing up or learning some new skills. Did you do that through your work or did you do that [00:31:00] through more formal education?

Lameen: So I did that a little bit through my work. So what happened in about 2017, there was a kind of a position available that would actually really push me out of my comfort zone.

And my former boss said, oh, I think you’d be the best candidate for that. And in my mind, I sat there thinking, oh, this is a going to be really long hours, but I thought, you know what, let me just, let me just take the challenge. And I did. And I just said, okay. And it helped me to grow it. It got me a lot more exposure.

And in fact, in your intro, you mentioned about how I developed a regional strategy for helping 41 African countries, that was one of my outputs from that role actually. I never would have had that access because before I was covering like three or four countries, it was fine. It was comfortable.

I knew I was going to do, I’ll go and visit them every year. I knew all of them for like several years, but this role pushed me to interact with even more like [00:32:00] politicians. So it helped me in terms of negotiating and skills and also it kind of challenged, okay what is my vision like for the continent?I was kind of that role, so, okay.

This is what obviously working with my colleagues, working with my director. Yeah, let’s try this. Let’s try and push this then, there’s going to be a lot of work, but it can only help me grow. So in terms of enhancing my negotiating skills, when I finished a lot of people send me all these really nice emails and you really, really learnt a lot from you or real need.

I never thought about it like that. I just said, I just wanted to, this is a vision that I have to help you become more independent to have a more strategic focus. I came out of my comfort zone a lot. And really, it really did push me and challenge me a lot, but definitely all the better for it.

I have no regrets. Yeah, of course there was some really long hours and some very stressful time, but you just do it to the [00:33:00] best of your ability and definitely that helped to put myself out of my comfort zone. I definitely have no regrets about that.

Kelly: Completely.

I mean, it’s like those challenges, those moments of growth in those difficult times, something that, like you said, pushing outside your norm, that is just such a great way to build additional skills. I just call them life skills, but it really truly is. And it also allows you to figure out again, as you’re making these moves, like what other pieces you can bring with you?

I tend to use this analogy that the skills we gained throughout our life are sort of like this backpack that we carry along and we’d like add additional things to it. And every time you add more things to your backpack, it opens additional windows and doors in your life. It’s really surprising.

Lameen: That’s true.

Exactly. Just talking about skills, so there’s this famous saying, I don’t know if it’s attributed to Bill Gates where it says the 10,000 hour rule, I;m sure you’ve heard of it. Yeah. You don’t consider yourself [00:34:00] an expert unless you’ve got 10,000 hours. So when I thought about, should I call myself a coffee expert?

Then I actually went back to 2005. I said, okay, how long did it take me to do a post for my blog? Maybe an hour, two hours, sometimes even three hours. If I was writing about a cafe, I’ve gone to the cafe. I spent time there. And then you come back, you write your notes. Then I added the hours.

Okay. It wasn’t the 10,000 hours, probably about 9000 and something hours. And I said, okay, I’m going to call myself a coffee expert because if I even use that as a yardstick then this concept also about the imposter syndrome, like, oh no, I’m not good enough for that.

But what yardstick are you using and whos judging you? If you make a mistake, that’s how we learn. Look at how we started walking. How many times did we fall down?

Kelly: My son now he’s five [00:35:00] and he is learning to ride without his training wheels.

If you would see his knees, because I think back to when I learned to ride a bike, I don’t remember everything, but I do remember being scared sometimes cause it hurts. And he just pops right back on that bike and just keeps going and he’ll be like bleeding.

But, it’s a good lesson for us because a lot of times, as you become an adult, you lose that aspect. You think when you see people and the way that they act, you think like, there’s this perfect level of perfection. It’s not that way at all. I mean, Tony Robbins makes mistakes. Jay Shetty makes mistakes. Like all of these, we’re just human. Just like anyone else.

Lameen: Exactly, exactly. I mean, I like that quote by Jay Shetty when he says he posts or does something when it’s 75% ready. If you waited for 80% or 90%, you said you wouldn’t even know who he is. Cause he would never do anything.

Kelly: [00:36:00] No, no. It’s the same thing with this podcast. I was like, I don’t even know what I’m doing. Here we go. And every week it’s like one little thing that I can do better. And of course, if I sat here and I thought about the huge big picture, and I compared myself to Jay Shetty’s podcast.

That would be like almost overwhelming, of course I’m not him and I haven’t done it for this long. And I think we aren’t as professional as his but that’s okay. Like I’m working these small increments and I’m not afraid. I’m not afraid like today when just internet decided to not work.

My background was flipped around and. But I feel like that’s a really good point is that it’s just, you can’t be afraid to fail. And I know most people think when I say these things like, oh, that’s not a skill. Well actually it is because a lot of people are [00:37:00] afraid and that’s something, it’s not something that comes naturally, it’s something that you have to work at and make a choice set and it’s okay.

Lameen: That’s true. Definitely. I definitely fully agree with that and I think my concept is that you’ve only got one life to live. I know some people think, oh, that’s a little bit theoretical.

I prefer to be like when I’m older or when it’s on my deathbed, say at least I tried. I dont want to be like, oh, I wish I’d gone to do that. Or I wish I had done that. Or we said that, of course, sometimes you make mistakes. Oh, I wish I’d said that, that moment in time, that moment has passed, but at least with the bigger things you just try and see, okay.

I give it my best shot. And I think inside there’ll be some, I don’t know what it’s like, a kind of a spiritual reward. If you try something, even if it doesn’t work, I give it my best and maybe I’ll look for other road. I’ll find another way to see where I want to go.

Kelly: Yeah, exactly. I do find it’s up some there’s something [00:38:00] inside that it’s a calming, the thought of not going after something and the stress that that causes you versus you’ve attempted it.

There’s just a different feeling. Inside. And sometimes you just find something unexpected. Like you said in any way. Now, especially what you’re doing with honest management and sort of this combination of the coffee consulting, the courses, the work with sort of the cancer management, although I wouldn’t have come into chatting with you thinking like this is some crazy innovation when we talk about skills based hiring and learning.

But in all honesty this morning, while I was trying to fix my internet, and I was thinking about what we were going to talk about. I was thinking that actually taking courses like this and learning from another person who has worked hard to become an expert in something, is actually a new way of learning. Because traditionally, and I’m sure this was the same for you, is that like, if you didn’t [00:39:00] go on to university maybe you weren’t going to be successful.

And apparently even to your professors, some people that did go to university or not either, but there was really this very traditional way about life, which was like, you needed to go through formal education, these are the steps that you had to take to be successful.

Whereas now you and I who had experience going the traditional route and now experience going what some people might call the untraditional, but feels very natural to us. I think that is really a new way of learning to be honest, because this is really focusing on, it’s interesting when I think about this, we’ve talked about this.

My husband has always loved coffee. Not starting a blog or anything like that, but he just like loves consuming coffee and going and finding amazing coffee places. And he has said to me, years passed and I had remembered this after our last conversation. He said, like, it just was a dream of his to have a coffee shop some day.

And it wasn’t only because of the coffee, it was just like the experience [00:40:00] of what you described in your shop, where you go and it’s different every day and you meet different people and you have these amazing conversations. It’s sort of this experience along with like tastes experience and personal experience that you feel.

And I think about if I was going to embark upon starting a coffee shop, I don’t want to read the book, coffee shops for dummies. I actually have that book. So don’t laugh because I did toy with this at one point. But I would prefer to go to someone that has had this level of experience, that has traveled, and gone to these places like that.

And that is really a new way for, I think, people to think about. I don’t want to go and take some course with some professor that’s never been out there and never experienced this and never had what you’ve had and you’re bringing, learning to people in a totally new way.

Lameen: Thanks [00:41:00] Kelly. So that’s a really good point. I remember, I think my sister in law and also one of my cousins asked me all this. I would like to do an MBA. Would you advise? And I was, I mean, I did an MBA, but many years ago and I said to them, well, I remember when I did economics, I did actually did labor economics.

I remember the statistic that stayed in my mind and the jump from, I think masters or PhD in terms of incremental in your salary, wasn’t that much. And I believe now the way the world is like getting a skill set thats relevant, I think ideally in line with your personality. And in fact, what I put on it a bit unusual, but I have basically three areas I want to focus on as a coffee consultant.

I said the first one is helping you design a coffee business in line with your personality, because it’s not about, oh, that cafes really, I really loved that cafe they’re really busy. I want to have a cafe like that. Well, maybe [00:42:00] it’s not, maybe your personality is different. So something that is not stressful.

I always tell everybody this. So even though we broke even with my cafe, I never actually earned enough to pay myself. But in that three and a half years, I never ever woke up saying I’m going to work. It never entered my mind. I wanted to wake up earlier. I had to be my cafe at six 30.

By seven o’clock everybody’s at a cafe. So I never said, oh, I’ve got to wake up or it’s too cold or why’d I have to go in today. And that, I just don’t know how to describe that feeling. I never said I’m going to work. It just never entered my mind. I would love to have that feeling again.

That’s one of the things that I also learned from that. And also when I was doing, like, thinking about what [00:43:00] kind of like reinventing myself. I did some online courses. First of all. Couple of online coaching courses. I want to like to buy actually online coaching courses.

A lot of people they say, should I do an online coaching course? The thing about online coaching courses that I found out, and I use mine valley a lot, was that 75 or 80% of those courses are actually about you. 20% is about how to get clients, which is what I actually loved about the courses as like, oh, it’s asking you a question because you can’t coach someone if you actually don’t know about yourself, about what you want in life. So from those couple of courses that I did, I was like, oh wow, this is, it helped me like, get my mind focused about, okay, what do I really want to do? What I want to achieve? What is my ideal day? What is my ideal salary, for example, things like that.

Well, how would I like to spend next five years or 10 years of my life? So I could start mapping that and then planning [00:44:00] backwards. I said, okay, this is what I would like to have in place. And that, that’s what led me to one of my goals, which is I would love to have a positive impact.

At least warming up people’s lives in a positive way, because I think a lot of successful people said the middle of money, but they were still empty inside. And then when this helping people for free, they found something within their heart. They were like, oh wow, this is, I never experienced this feeling.

So it wasn’t just about becoming a millionaire. It was like saying, oh, I’m helping people. And I thought, yeah, that’s the feeling that I would love to. I would love to let me at least go for that feeling and try my best to get that feeling so they can experience that on a daily basis.

And of course, God willing, the resources will follow with that. So I can look up to my family and support my wife and all that kind of stuff. That’s kind of the journey that I’m [00:45:00] on, but I definitely think looking at skillsets and learning from people, there’s so many courses.

Now, if you were looking at negotiating skills focus. I think it’s better to look at getting the course on that. And maybe sometimes if you’re good at reading, people learn differently. Now you can either watch so you can make your YouTube, you can listen to a podcast or you can write. Those are the three main ones that we actually learn.

There’s so many avenues now, if you’re either going for morning jog you can put on a podcast or if you have a bit of time, if we sit down in the evening, you can watch a YouTube, but I learnt a lot from podcasts and YouTube channels as well before I took the step to actually start paying for some courses that I did.

I also knew that I would love to do this, but maybe let me learn from people who have done this. I haven’t reached that stage where I could say, oh yeah, I’ve done this. I don’t need to learn any more. I know. I know everything. Even if I do a course, I learned two or three things.[00:46:00]

For me, that’s paid for the course. I’ve learned three things I can say. Okay. I’d like to implement this in my life, going forward.

Kelly: Yeah, no, I completely agree. And I find like, I love that you described the different ways to learn too, because that is a thing from a traditional learning aspect to nowadays, that is so different because you were learning was only one way.

And if you weren’t really skilled at that, or you had, let’s say like, my daughter has the gift of dyslexia, that you were kind of left out of the ability to. And learning is such a gift, and there are so many different ways to learn now. And so it doesn’t matter what your preference is, what you Excel with, whatever it is.

I mean, you can just go and find that and do that. And, especially when it’s something that you love, like, when I listened to podcasts a lot myself actually, which is like the reason why I wanted to do this, because I felt like, wow. And I was especially just [00:47:00] gravitated towards the growth mindset things.

So I can really appreciate when you say, and it’s only because I had to work through some issues myself and in helping my daughter gain her confidence, that really got me into thinking about life skills in this way, which is, if you don’t have the confidence, the belief in yourself, like you’re okay with the challenges and that you’re not going to be perfect all the time that you’re going to fail.

And that’s just part of the process. Like a lot of times you’re just not even going to ever start or try. And that to me was just such a sadness that I saw with all these people. Like you said, like their days were not like you jumping up early and like, all right, let’s go. Their days were definitely like, oh, I don’t want to get out of bed. I don’t want to do this. Life and blah. And that’s just such a shame.

Lameen: That’s true. I think as you said, like, there’s one of the questions, I’m sure you’ve read the book as well by Carol Dweck mindset. [00:48:00] And yeah, it says, for example, don’t ask the kids what they want to become, ask your kids what they would love to change in the world.

And it’s also related to the concept of the Japanese console. So basically what, what you like, what other people like, what the world needs, for example. And I really loved the way that the founder of, I’ve forgotten the name now, the innovative tights, spandex.

And I love, I love the way she broke down Ikigi, cause I think I can actually be a little bit confused as she just said. And I did the exercise myself. Write down five or six things that really bother you in the world. And then I say, okay, this really bothers me. Why isn’t this? Like this wasn’t that like that?

And then try and match it up with your skillsets. Obviously, some things are probably a little bit beyond your reach, but if you break it down, like that’s what she thought. Like, why is it [00:49:00] that women, if they want to wear white linen pants, I have to wear thick tights for example, there must be a solution to this.

Now she’s a billionaire, but it just bothered her. It just really bothered her. She said let me see if I can find a solution to this. Like, one of the things I think about is like, why do people go to coffee shops and why do they have bad coffee? Because I’ve studied how to make coffees.

You just follow five, five or six steps you can make great coffee. So that means in the steps one is cutting down on one or two things where they’re trying to just be cheap about it. It’s just like, why are they doing that. It’s not that complicated. It’s like a formula more or less. So I wrote them that list of about six or seven things.

And that’s maybe for your listeners or viewers, if there’s something that they’re thinking about, oh, I haven’t found my passion yet. And I just have an exercise. It can be a fun exercise, even with your family [00:50:00] around the table. What really bothers you about life or what will happen to you today? Why is it like that? Why can’t we have this? What can we have that? For example. That you might have an opening.

Kelly: Yeah, I totally agree. It’s it’s and it’s a reverse way of a lot of the, how a lot of people think about what they need to do in their life.

Right. Because you described like I’m going to go work at the world bank and I’m sure that this was like a typical thing that someone from where you went to school would say, because that was just like, what success looks like to us, but it doesn’t mean that that’s the way. And I think a lot of people are starting to think of it this way.

And I love that you’re really pressing on that with your business in so many ways. And just bringing all of these passions together to make something that’s uniquely you. I know we’re getting a little close to the end of our time here Lameen, and I wanted to leave with an open-ended question.

Just that, I mean, I feel like you dropped so many amazing thoughts for [00:51:00] everyone to consider. And of course this last one, but I’ll leave with the open end question. Is there anything else that you’d like to share with the audience?

Lameen: One of the things that when I was about to leave the IEA and a lot of my colleagues was saying to me, oh no, you’re leaving.

What are you going to do with your life? And I said, oh, this is what I want to do. I want to do something with coffee. I want to see if I can help people, continue to be of service. And one of the things that struck m,. I don’t know whether I felt sad about it said, how can you know what you want to do? And I said to them, don’t you know what you want to do?

And that kind of struck me. Wow. A lot of people just going through life and they don’t really know what they want to do and they only have one life. And I obviously trying to be as best as you can. So I think that some people who might not have found that purpose, just even if you spend five or 10 minutes of your day, just thinking about what you really love to do, and maybe there’s a few exercises you can do.

What happens if you had, if you think it’s about money to say, okay, if you had $1 million or $2 million, what would you do? What [00:52:00] happens if you never had to work? How would you spend your day and just spend a bit of, you can do through like a meditative exercise, close your eyes for five or 10 minutes, or just reflect on life or how you want to be remembered.

So I really encourage people to just really think about what they really want to do. And if they’re not in a position where they can just say, oh, I’m going to set up my business or start, just at least try and reconnect with that on a daily basis. And if you can’t do that, at least on the weekend, just spend an hour just or half an hour just thinking about, well, I really love, I wanted to be an artist when I was five years old.

Why didn’t I become that? Or I wanted to be a writer, just start writing. And there’s so many courses, free courses. You can learn how to write, just start writing anything, write about your experience. You never know how you can connect with anybody. There’s over 7 billion of us are definitely people that are going through what you’re doing, or maybe some hardship.

And it would definitely connect with you. So just try and [00:53:00] share what you have as best as you can, and really be connected with yourself.

Kelly: That is such great advice to leave us with Lameen. Thank you so much. I want to mention that anyone that is looking to stay in touch with Lameen or is interested in working with him because of course, like I’m already thinking through that.

Lameen is available on LinkedIn at Lameen Abdul Hash Malique. You can also learn more about From Coffee, With Love on their website, which is fromcoffeewithlove.com. That is also available on Twitter @fromcoffeelove or Instagram @fromcoffeewithlove. I highly recommend following those by the way, because I’m super fascinated by it.

You can also learn more about Honest Management on their website, honestmanagement.org. And you also have Instagram and Facebook pages for that organization as well. And what I found so interesting about following those particular accounts was that it was just really like [00:54:00] uplifting and inspiring.

So something that is great to sort of have, I know that when I try to look at my feed, I like it to be something that is going to be inspiring and positive messages for me. And that will definitely get you there. So I highly suggest keeping tabs on those. And thank you so much for joining us today, Lameen. I so appreciate you being here and spending the time.

It has just been fantastic getting to know you, and I hope that we can continue.

Lameen: Definitely. Thanks so much for your time. I really appreciate it. And I hope your viewers and listeners will benefit from our wonderful conversation.

Kelly: I hope they do as well. And I want to thank everybody else for listening into this episode of Let’s Talk About Skills, Baby.

If you enjoyed, please feel free to shoot over some feedback. We’d love a rating and review, and I am also available at Kelly Ryan Bailey on all the various socials, LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, and [00:55:00] Twitter. So thank you again and hope you all have a wonderful day. Bye.